Relitivism?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Apr 22 2005, 07:08 AM'] Five dimensions? There are three spatial dimensions and one temporal one, equaling four. Unless youare talking string theory and then there are perhaps ten, 12, or up to 20. But not five. [/quote]
You know way too much for your own good.

[Timothy]

Okay here is his reply....enjoy!


[quote]A very thoughtful retort!  I was worried when I hadnt received anything yesterday. I thought I left enough clues for you to chew on and apparently I have.

Im glad to see you have retreated from that very foolish example regarding death. At least it served well as a dramatic statement yet false as an argument. Im certainly glad that that specter has proven to be relative! Besides, if we survive the next decade, mans technology will probably be capable of making death the exception and not the rule. A huge indication of this and proof that death is relative in nature is cancer cells, they are immortal. Funny, our curse, cancer, may some day be our blessing (or perhaps an everlasting curse?). But you misspoke, for now (and probably truly forever) we are not immortal in and of ourselves, only Christ makes this so.

Television rots your brain because when you watch it, your cognitive functions begin to deteriorate.

I find the above to be a much more appealing example of circular logic than yours. If the world is so absolute then why dont you try giving more concrete examples instead of circle jerks? There are many of them. But Ill play; the fact that truth may be relative to the first group does not dictate that truth does not exist. Ahhh, I take it back; its a really boring kind of argument, as it does not lend itself well to experimentation, yawn. This type of argument never convinces anyone, it just reminds one to stock up on aspirin!



Just because the fifth dimension is not officially recognized by science, yet, does not mean that it does not exist (its unfortunate that the characteristic of the 5th dimension is so threatening to scientific objectivity, but nevertheless, it is right up your alley), after all, the world turned out to be round, right? The master, Einstein, spent his last decade proving mathematically that it does exist and came electron close. The fifth dimension is the degree of goodness and the degree of evil. You see, the Jews claim that the Eternal told them that it exists and is the basis for most of their theology (and ours). As a Christian, and since Judaism is our foundation, it would me most unappealing if you rejected it. It is an obvious thing in the world and Christ spoke of it in great detail. Funny you mention string theory (mathematically it works out), many Jews, as told to Moses, also believe that the Eternal works in 26 dimensions, though even this number by no means limits His infinite nature.



Im glad to see that you wisely recognize that an important dimension in the universe is, in fact,  relative! It is such an important dimension that it is indeed a form of truth. As a dimension, is it not part of reality and actuality, the very definition of truth? I could give you an infinite (if I was truly immortal as you say) number of examples of times truth but suffice to say that it is of such importance that in the book of Genesis it is the first concept: In the beginning, a strong implication of the time continuum, which then proceeds to the six days of creation and the seventh day of rest; time, time, time truth, truth, truth. To deny this would mean to deny existence and therefore God.

Finally, we come to the rub and the crumbs I left (remember, I love backhands). Your last statement was not the way I would have put it but it was brilliant and perhaps better than mine since you are bringing in the Boss and all. There was no false dichotomy (I dont speak falsely); Man is both physical and spiritual. To be clearer though, I should have said subject to relativity. It was very intuitive for you to notice though. You need only to pinch yourself and then to examine your thoughts to know this. Thought is spiritual. It is a manifestation of the soul.  The Jews tell us that in the spiritual realm there is no space, there is no time, and that everything is absolute and moreover, singular. For instance, this is why you cannot have more that one thought at a time. Try it. According to them there is a reason for this, but that is another subject. Also, God and Christ are many times compared to light and it is not coincidence that the most distinctive property of light is timelessness; at the speed of light, time does not existan absolute!

Where your logic fails and what evidence supports, is that existence has both absolute and relative truths.

Ironically but perhaps predestined, Physics has proven this to be the case between the absoluteness of Newtonian Physics and the relativity of Quantum Physics.



The real problem is I think I mentioned the world is round, right? Its flatness was an unfortunate absolute statement the Church made when it should have stuck to what Father Russ called, the main thing.  This is an adventure that the Olivetan should probably avoid as it is distracting from the main thing. But I understand why, at John Paul II request, he tackled it. You, as well as most of the commentators, even those who support him, are misinterpreting His Holinesss point. You and they are getting him wrong.

What His Holiness defends is not dogmatism against relativism. What he defends is not absolutism against relativism. These are false alternatives.

What he attacks as relativism is the regulative principle that all thought is and must remain subjective. What he defends against such relativism is the contrary regulative principle, namely, that each human subject must continue to inquire incessantly, and to bow to the evidence of fact and reason.  How ironic, our enemy of the past centuries has become our greatest ally!

Atheistic thought has entered the post modern age tail between its legs, and has retreated toward the pathetic theory of absolute relativism, since science has chased them away and destroyed all the previous un-truths and corrupt theories they relied on.

The fact that we each see things differently does not imply that there is no truth. It implies, rather, that each of us may have a portion of the truth, and that in this or that matter some of us may hold more (or less) truth than others. Therefore, since each of us has only part of all the truth we seek, we must work hard together to discern in all things wherein lies the truth, and wherein the error.

His Holiness wishes to defend the imperative of seeking the truth in all things, the imperative to follow the evidence. This imperative applies to daily life, to science, and to faith. The great Jewish and Christian name for God is connected to this imperative one of the Creators names is Truth. Other related names are Light as I have said, and Way. Humans are made seekers after truth.

It is no more than a fact that ours is a pluralistic world, in which individuals have virtually an infinite variety of views. For the Olivetan, not only is this individual variety normal and to be praised; it shows the infinite number of ways humans have been made in the image of the infinite God. Each one of us, as it were, mirrors a different aspect of the infinite abundance of God.

But the fact of human relativity that is, the fact that we each see things differently, or that the life-voyage of each of us is unique and inimitable should not be transformed into an absolute moral principle. The fact of relativity does not logically lead to the principle of moral relativism.

No great, inspiring culture of the future can be built upon the moral principle of relativism. For at its bottom such a culture holds that nothing is better than anything else, and that all things are in themselves equally meaningless. Except for the fragments of faith (in progress, in compassion, in conscience, in hope) to which it still clings, illegitimately, such a culture teaches every one of its children that life is a tale told by an idiot, signifying nothing.

Understand the relativity man is subject to and indeed imprisoned with but seek and find The Absolute Truth!

[/quote]

Edited April 25, 2005 by Timothy

[Timothy]

I don't know what to think about this...what do you all think?

[argent_paladin]

First to Cam...
Yes, I suppose your argument from death is a good one. I was just on a realist philosophy rather than an existential one. From a realist point of view, we are rational animals. From an existentialist point of view, we all die.

And I have to go to class and cannot fully respond now, but the sense I get is that we are not too much in disagreement. I am not saying that NO truths are relative or that nothing is relative. I am simply saying that not everything is relative, not all truth is relative. A truth like "Taco Bell is the best resturant" is a truth for me but not for you. But, something like 2 + 2 = 4 is true for all. Showing that some truth is relative doesn't damage my argument. But a single instance of an absolute truth destroys yours.

[Scofizzle]

The opposite of objectivity...

All I know of it has already been said....

[argent_paladin]

Wait, I reread what he said and I don't really find anything to disagree with. Ask me a specific quesiton and perhaps I can dispute, but it seems pretty good to me.

[Timothy]

Not trying to dispute his writings, just wanted to seem what you thought. Agreeing is perfectly fine.

Edited April 28, 2005 by Timothy

[Cam42]

Incidentally everyone.....I would look to what Avery Cardinal Dulles has most recently said. I think that you will find that he makes a clear connection between Relativism and Immanuel Kant. It is Kant's philosophy which has cast Euorpe and some of the US into the turmoil in which it is embroiled today.

Have at it.

Cam