Contraception leading to a decrease in abortion?!

[CanCath]

I find stats that don't include chemical abortions such as those that happen when using the morning after pill and such are not very reliable. Like mentioned earlier, most contraceptives are abortifations (spelling?). If you count those... I would doubt the rate of abortions is decreasing.

[soberisms]

oh yeah condoms and birth control is not a form of abortion lol read the definition of what abortion is.

[CanCath]

[quote name='soberisms' date='Apr 21 2005, 10:38 PM']
The reality is that not everyone beleives in what we do. As catholics its out responsibilty to respect other religions or have many of you forgot about JP2 and B16 are teaching these days? [/quote]
Respecting religions doesn't mean denying the Truth. And the Truth is contraception not only encourages abortion (when the contraceptive doesn't work for example) it also affects the union itself. It becomes utilitarian. Contraception contributes to objectification of the body... holy bodies regardless of Creed.

[argent_paladin]

The Alan Guttemacher institute is not to be trusted. The decrease in surgical abortion is real, but the factors are bogus. The population is aging, that means fewer fertile women per 100,000 and fewer teens per 100,000. That means fewer abortions.
Also, attitudes are changing. The latest surveys show that teens today are much more likely to be virgins, have fewer sexual partners, wait longer to have sex, etc, etc. That also, of course, would mean fewer pregnancies and fewer abortions. Plus, this change is likely to have been motivated by greater religiosity and moral values, which would lead to fewere abortions as well. I think these factors make more sense.

[argent_paladin]

[quote name='soberisms' date='Apr 21 2005, 08:38 PM']
who said anything about the pill in particular? im talking about the practice in general. Many of you have this illusion that everyone in the world is a christian or catholic. The reality is that not everyone beleives in what we do. As catholics its out responsibilty to respect other religions or have many of you forgot about JP2 and B16 are teaching these days? Not everyone practices abstinence or believes in it, so contraception is the only form in which we can stop the abortions! think about it peoples..... [/quote]
Contraception as a moral evil is not true because the Catholic Church says it is true. Rather, The Catholic Church believes that contraception is a moral evil because it is true. And true doesn't mean just for those who believe it, but for everyone.

For example, if someone didn' t believe that seatbelts saved lives and didn't use them. That certainly wouldn't save them if they got into a car accident.

And what, exactly, do you mean by "not everyone believes in abstinence". That they don't believe that it exists? That they don't believe that it prevents abortion? That they don't believe that people can do it? Clearly, it exists, it is 100% effective in preventing pregnancy, disease, etc. And people do practice it. We are not animals. We have free will.

Abortion and contraception are both founded on the idea that we cannot control our sexual urges. If this is true, then why do we condemn rape or pedophilia or adultery? All involve a lack of sexual control. The fundamental truth that contradicts the contraceptive mentality is that we are responsible for our actions and whatever results from our actions.

[M.A.N.]

Soberisms,

This should belong in the Debate Room. I was just using the word "pill" as universal because you said within marriage and the pill is the most common form of contraception within a marriage.

Yes, we have to respect "others" but we cannot respect the sin and we can't lead them astray into the evils hiddent behind false truths. We cannot find it acceptable for some to use contraceptions, but not Catholics? It's scary to differentiate (spelling) Catholics from the rest of the world because we are all God's children.

I may be wrong, but I find your point "oking" both sides. There is only one Truth and we must defend the Truth; it is especially our duty as Catholics to try our best to lead others to a state of grace and not sin.

Sorry if its a little confusing, wrote it fast......

[Dreamweaver]

With contraception, one in essence tries to control one's body, treating pregnancy as a disease. If for whatever reason the pill fails, and you get "sick" (pregnant), how do you treat it? An abortion. The the whole mindset of trying to control you body. If you start using contraceptives, abortion is just the next step.

Here's some interesting stats on abortion and contraception. By paying a modest fee, this site directly compares two different statistics, but, you'll have to make due with looking at the charts by themselvse.

[url="http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/hea_abo"]Abortion (annual)[/url]
[url="http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/hea_abo_cap"]Abortion (per capita)[/url]
[url="http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/hea_con"]Contraception (percentage)[/url]

Now, look at Bulgaria's place in the last two. If it were true that increased use of contraceptives decrease amount of abortion, how would you explain Bulgaria?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='XIX' date='Apr 21 2005, 10:07 PM'] Title says it all. How should I argue that contraception should not be used when every stat I come across insists that contraception leads to a decrease in abortion?

If you could come across stats that say that abortion increases with contraception, that would be great. Otherwise, i'm not sure how I'd respond.

PS: This is semi-urgent [/quote]
Contraception is intrinsically evil.

Contraception leads to the devaluing of male and female relationships.

Please read:
Humanae Vitae
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/P6HUMANA.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/P6HUMANA.HTM[/url]


And:
[url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/contraception.html"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/contraception.html[/url]


Contraception in the form of birth control pills is not contraception but it is actually an abortion pill. It does not keep the woman from conceiving a child, it keeps the child from staying in the womb.

From the Catechism:
[b]2370 [/b]
Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil:159


Thus the innate LANGUAGE that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory LANGUAGE, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.160

[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.htm[/url]




God Bless,
ironmonk

[Jaime]

Yes what everyone has quoted about contraception (following Church teachings) is correct.

But you can also argue against this without ever using Church teachings. To accurately assert that contraception assists in the decrease in abortions, you would need to have a model where society did not have contraception. In our history, we've never had a time where contraception wasn't available when abortion was legal.

From an empirical standpoint, this assertion is proven false. The statistics are inconsequential and misleading.

Here's another example of how statistics can be misused without empirical data. There is a parallel rise in the amount of drownings and the amount of ice cream eaten. When there is a significant rise in the consumption of ice cream, there is a parallel rise in deaths by drowning. (This is absolutely true by the way)

One can assert by reading the statistics that there is a causative effect between ice cream eating and drownings. If you eat a lot of ice cream, your chances of drowning increase.

But that's a ridiculous statement. Why? Because there are other variables. When it gets hot, people eat more ice cream. They also swim more than when its colder. So the true variable is heat and there is no correlation between ice cream and drowning.

The same thing can be applied in studies of Contraception v abortion. The statistics are not valid because they are not empirical nor are they acknowledging other pertinent variables.

[AfroNova No Limit Soldier]

RESPECT OTHER RELIGIONS!

Confucius & Ghandi both spoke out AGAINST contraception & FOR the idea that sexual union had 2 objectives: 1. bonding between MAN and WIFE and 2. procreation

Look it up on the internet!

Look up COMSTOCK LAWS. Contraception was AGAINST THE LAW in the US & Great Britain until the 1930s (both countries are NOT Catholic). The Anglican Church was followed by other churches when they changed their stance on contraception! Pius VI said that Catholic Church WILL NOT change their stance on contraception. Proponents of contraception said that the use of contraception should be between a man & wife ONLY & only in serious circumstances. Pius VI told the world that the increase of contraceptive use will lead to more divorce, sexually transmitted diseases, and abortion.

The world laughed at him. Proponents of contraception said it would improve marriages & relationships.

If contraception worked, why is divorce up more than ever? Why is the world losing the battle against AIDs & HIV? Why is abortion up?

Look at the world around us. Contraception has not improved marriages & relationships. It is an intrinsic evil.

Read Humanae Vitae.

WAKE UP PEOPLE! It's not just Catholics that are against abortion. It's not just Catholics that are against contraception. It's not just Catholics that are against gay marriage, premarital sex, masturbation, and euthanasia.

Talk to the leaders of Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Mormonism, etc. It is basic morality & we all agree on the big issues. IT IS MORAL TRUTH, not some backwards religious superstition!

And get this: I am Filipino. The Philippine government proposed legislation limiting each family to 2 children. You know what happened? MUSLIMS & CATHOLICS TOOK TO THE STREETS IN PROTEST. Fighting next to each other.

I love how Catholics are always dealt the cheap blow, the hit below the belt, we are always blamed. You know what that means? The devil hates us! Because we have the Truth! Sometimes when I start to doubt the fullness of the Truth, I will recall all the attacks of the devil against my flesh. He wouldn't be fighting so hard against me if all of this wasn't so right.

PRAISED BE JESUS CHRIST! VIVA IL PAPA!

[keighters]

I suggest listening to "Contraception: Why not" by Dr. Janet Smith. She gives all the facts that need to be heard about the truth of contraception.

[CanCath]

Yeah!! That's a GREAT TAPE!! And its free I believe... probably available online somewhere... For free... hehe

[keighters]

heres the site to order it: [url="http://www.omsoul.com/category17.html"]Contraception: Why Not?[/url]


p.s. it is freeeee!

Edited April 23, 2005 by keighters

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='XIX' date='Apr 21 2005, 08:07 PM'] Title says it all. How should I argue that contraception should not be used when every stat I come across insists that contraception leads to a decrease in abortion?

If you could come across stats that say that abortion increases with contraception, that would be great. Otherwise, i'm not sure how I'd respond.

PS: This is semi-urgent [/quote]
you cant fight evil with evil........ur trading one sin for another.......no difference

[M.A.N.]

Well stated AfroNova No Limit Soldier!