Anglicans & The Blessed Sacrament

[M.SIGGA]

I know that Anglicans do not have valid holy orders in the eyes of the Catholic Church, but this holy order of Anglicans are doing some stuff that looks pretty familiar to my Catholic eyes. Since they are Protestants, are Anglicans such as these just kidding themselves when they preach and believe they have the Blessed Sacrament? They even have adoration chapels, Corpus Christi processions, and a rebuilt shrine to Our Lady of Walsingham.

Henry VIII and Elizabeth I must be turning in their graves

Confraternity of The Blessed Sacrament (CBS)

http://www.confraternity.org.uk

[Dave]

I'm afraid they are inDouche kidding themselves. :(

[Ellenita]

I thought there was a Catholic and an Anglican shrine to Our Lady of Walsingham. I remember being taken there as a child.

There has always been an 'anglo catholic' section of the Anglican church which really does align itself in it's mind to the catholic church and this is the group which has, for as long as I can remember (and that's a good few years! ), talked about the two churches joining together again. There appears to be many similarities on the surface in the form of the mass. I remember one of my lecturers at university who was a Catholic nun saying if she wanted a pre Vatican II service she would go to a high anglican church - at that time we were still chanting much of the mass, using incense, saying the Hail Mary.....

The main problem for anglicans is the authority of the pope!

[INRIWarrior3]

Yes, Ellenita is right. The Anglicans that are called "High Church" are very close to Catholicism and therefore do believe in the Blessed Sacrament.

The main problem for anglicans is the authority of the pope!

Haha, I guess their still angry at the papacy for not allowing Henry VIII to divorce Eleanor of Aquataine and marry Anne Bolin (if that's how you spell it).

Edited November 7, 2003 by INRIWarrior3

[Dave]

Haha, I guess their still angry at the papacy for not allowing Henry VIII to divorce Eleanor of Aquataine and marry Anne Bolin (if that's how you spell it).

No, Henry VIII wanted to divorce Catherine of Aragon, not Eleanor of Aquitaine.

[INRIWarrior3]

Thaks for the correction there Dave. Peace.

[BLAZEr]

Ah, Eleanor of Aquitaine, a real English Queen!!! Mother of Richard the Lionhearted! Now, we're talking the England that I have dreams about!

[IXpenguin21]

my dad is lutheran and he tells me that they believe that their 'comunion' is both bread and the body of christ, not just the body of christ...

but i dunno if they honor it special or not...

[Uncle Gus]

The Eucharist is no longer bread and wine, it is the Body and Blood of Christ.

As for Anglicans believing in the Eucharist, yes, many do, however the "Eucharist" that the Anglicans celebrate is not true Eucharist. The reason being that they do not have a valid Episcopate (college of Bishops). In order to have valid Eucharist (which is an expression of communion, hence the name "Holy Communion.") you must have a valid Episcopate, you must be in communion with the Bishop of Rome. After all, you can't express a communion that you don't have, right?

As for other churches (those with valid Episcopates) the Catholic church recognises only the Orthodox churches as having valid Episcopates, and therefore, valid Eucharist.

[kdewolf2]

There are some Anglo-Catholics, however, who after Apostolicae Curae had bishops consecrated from Old Catholic bishops (19th ce dissenters who rejected Vatican I) and therefore would presumably have valid (but illicit) orders since the Church never said the consecrations of the Old Catholic bishops were invalid (only illicit). It's a mess, though.

[Uncle Gus]

Being ordained by a valid Bishop is not sufficient. Firstly, that validly ordained Bishop must be in full communion with the Church, and so must the Bishop being ordained.

[Katholikos]

Being ordained by a valid Bishop is not sufficient. Firstly, that validly ordained Bishop must be in full communion with the Church, and so must the Bishop being ordained.

An illustration of Gus's point is the Charismatic Episcopal Church. Their "bishops" have gone to a lot of trouble to get themselves ordained and consecrated by "validly" ordained bishops -- both "Orthodox" and "Catholic." But they can't confect the Eucharist or administer the sacraments, though they claim validity and go through the motions. But its just a copy-cat "rehearsal" and not the real thing.

http://www.iccec.org/index1.html

JMJ Likos

[Anna]

Wowser!

They're less than ten years old!!! But they've got a Catholic "look" about them...

Of course, looks are deceiving.

[L5]

As for other churches (those with valid Episcopates) the Catholic church recognises only the Orthodox churches as having valid Episcopates, and therefore, valid Eucharist.

I think Catholicism recognizes the validity of the Orthodox churches because of the lack of Catholic presence in those nations, but if the Catholic Church increased its presence in the Eastern European nations, would she have the authority to revoke the validity of the Orthodox orders?

[cmotherofpirl]

WE recognize their orders as valid becuase they are valid, not becuaes of a lack of Catholic population.

[Katholikos]

I think Catholicism recognizes the validity of the Orthodox churches because of the lack of Catholic presence in those nations, but if the Catholic Church increased its presence in the Eastern European nations, would she have the authority to revoke the validity of the Orthodox orders?

L5, here's my take on it:

The Church recognizes the validity of Orthodox episcopates because they were from the beginning of Christianity and continue to be in apostolic succession, never having lost it, although they are in schism. That's why Orthodox sacraments are valid, and Anglican sacraments [and others] are not. Anglicans lost Apostolic Succession through a defect in the form in the Edwardine Ordinal [after Henry VIII] and a defect in intention in those who used it.

The Charismatic Episcopal Church, as I understand it, has bishops that are "validly" but illicitly ordained. Therefore, they don't have the faculties of bishops; for example, they cannot validly ordain priests and other bishops.

It's kinda like a person getting elected governor in an election that isn't recognized by the State.

Izzat right, guys?

JMJ Likos

[Ellenita]

The Charismatic Episcopal Church, as I understand it, has bishops that are "validly" but illicitly ordained.

Do you mean illicitly ordained as in by other Anglican bishops or the arch bishop?

[Katholikos]

Ellenita,

QUOTE

who we are ...

other names by which known: The Charismatic Episcopal Church

leadership: The Most Reverend A. Randoph Adler, Patriarch

membership:The International Communion of the Charismatic Episcopal Church (ICCEC) is one of the fastest growing churches in the world, having started with only one bishop and three parishes in 1992 and now reporting close to 1000 churches with over 200,000 “communicant” members in 20 countries. (Attendance is much higher than “communicant” membership.)

historical origin: While the ICCEC is a relatively young communion, it occupies a position within the crucible of historic faith through both Anglican and Catholic [i.e., Catholic Apostolic Church of Brazil] lines; receiving its apostolic succession through pure lines of undisputed orthodox Christianity. While rooted in the ancient we also believe that the ICCEC has been raised by God to be a new jurisdiction with pillars in the historic, apostolic churches as well as the charismatic and evangelical movements of our own generation. In this respect the ICCEC exists as a "convergence of streams" -- a unifier of the liturgical/sacramental, evangelical, and charismatic tributaries of the Church Universal, which flow into the one “river, whose streams make glad the city of God, the Holy Place where the Most High dwells" (Psalm 46:4).

The seeds of this “convergence movement” were planted in May, 1977, when a group of evangelical leaders came together to issue a powerful call to all evangelicals to rediscover their roots in historic Christianity. "The Chicago Call," as it came to be known, was signed by such people as Peter Gilquist, Thomas Howard, Robert Webber, and Jon Braun. Their message--a recovery of our common and apostolic roots for the faithful transmission of the Gospel--became the catalyst and heartbeat for our church.

Uniquely, the ICCEC is not a schism or splinter group from another denomination. It was a unique work of God borne into the hearts of dedicated and faithful clergy from a number of denominations (Pentecostals, Baptists, Anglicans, Lutherans, Independent Charismatics, Wesleyans, etc.) who studied, prayed over, and witnessed this need for a house of convergence. They were burdened for a church that not only exercised apostolic authority within a liturgical framework but operated under the inspiration and anointing of the Holy Spirit. On June 26, 1992, Father Randolph Adler was consecrated as the church's first Bishop and Primate.

Today, clergy and laymen of the ICCEC, traveling from their heritage in Evangelical, Pentecostal/Charismatic, Anglican, Roman, and Eastern Orthodox expressions, now have the common vision of making the Kingdom of God visible to the nations of the world. The founding vision of the ICCEC states: “We seek to bring the rich sacramental and liturgical life of the early church to searching evangelicals and charismatics as well as carrying the power of Pentecost to our brothers and sisters in the historical churches, all the while providing a home for all Christians who seek an expression of faith that is equally liturgical/sacramental, evangelical, and charismatic.”

[Ellenita]

Katholikos, thanks!

Sounds really dodgy to me, certainly if I understand apostolic succession correctly!

It's a really young church which will no doubt have to start building it's own interpretation of theology if it's going to be as universal as it claims with people from all those different denominations, especially since it's going to have to undo centuries of division!

What's the Catholic Apostolic Church of Brazil? Is it in communion with Rome?

[Katholikos]

Katholikos, thanks!

Sounds really dodgy to me,    certainly if I understand apostolic succession correctly! 

It's a really young church which will no doubt have to start building it's own interpretation of theology if it's going to be as universal as it claims with people from all those different denominations, especially since it's going to have to undo centuries of division!

What's the Catholic Apostolic Church of Brazil?  Is it in communion with Rome?

Ellenita,

http://www.cecofcanada.org/page7.html

I tried to copy and paste the contents of this website, but couldn't. This is where the Charismatic Episcopal Church gets its "apostolic succession" from the "Catholic Church." This bishop in Brazil was removed from duty (in other words, fired) and started his own "Independent Catholic Church." He thinks that since he was validly ordained, he can ordained others. Uh uh. Doesn't work that way.

I emailed the CEC and asked them where I could get info about their apostolic succession. I read it some time ago, but now I can't find it on their website. I'll let you know when (if) I hear from them.

JMJ Likos