Sanctus

[MichaelFilo]

I know the Novus Ordo Mass is not to be discussed lest someone would doubt the unity within the Catholic Church. So, I am simply stating this about all Masses said in English (that inadvertnly narrows it down to the Novus Ordo). Let me get to the point, and if this thread is out of line with rules (which restrict discussion on the Novus Ordo, but doesn't specify about vernacular) then please delete it if you so see fit.

My arguement is thus, based on something brought up by a sight (specifically Adoremus.com (we all know, it's not perfectly in-line, but some of it is) and after hearing a gregorian chant CD that my Baptist ( WOW ) Latin teacher let me borrow. I heard the Sanctus in Latin, with a convineint English translation. The Adoremus website gave me some meat to this discrepancy that I saw between the Latin (and consquently the correct version) and the English, which seems to be an altered version in which the difference changes the meaning of the very reciation of the Sanctus.

The Sanctus as according to the Tridentine Latin from [url="http://www.truecatholic.org/masstrad.htm"]TrueCatholic.org[/url]
[quote]Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus, Dominus Deus Sabaoth. Pleni sunt coeli et terra gloria tua. Hosanna in excelsis. Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domini. Hosanna in excelsis.[/quote]

Literally translated this would read :
[quote]Holy, holy, holy Lord God of Hosts. Heaven and earth are filled with Thy glory. Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest.[/quote]

Now, my qualm specifically comes forth from the first line. The "Holy, holy, holy" is a reference to the Trinity and is found in both Isiah and the book of Revelations. In all of the Masses I have heards, the 2nd and 3rd "holies" are split-up. This clearly defaces the Trinitarian remark in this line.

Which leads to the next problem, that is the "holy Lord". As I was listening to the Sanctus, the pauses were unfamiliar to my ears, and as I like to sing along in the Latin to gregorian chant so that I may become verbally fluent in Latin, I found it terribly awkward for this deviation from the Latin the English has taken up. This is the point I went to Adoremus in my plight to find some answers. The Latin is rendered "Dominus Deus Sabaoth". The problem came up when the English renders its "Holy Lord, God of power and might". That isn't like the Latin. The Latin lacks the comma, and is read "Lord God of Hosts". Aside from the clearly proposterous deviation from Sabaoth to "God of power and might", why would the words "Dominus" and Deus" be seperated? Isiah 6:3 does not render them thus, which the reference comes from. No translation renders them thus, so what happened to the translation?

I'm no Latin scholar, but I'm willing to argue this to the very bottom of the situation, to find out exactly why we went from Lord God of hosts to Holy Lord, God of power and might.

God bless,
Mikey

[i]Post Scriptum:[/i] Relevant article from Adoremus that was referenced in my above post : [url="http://www.adoremus.org/0602Sanctus.html"]Adoremus : Sanctus[/url]

Edited April 26, 2005 by MichaelFilo

[Cam42]

Cam Jr.,

Give me tomorrow to figure this out and research and I will post tomorrow night when I get home from work.

Sincerely,

Cam

[MichaelFilo]

Excuse me while I go be giddy that I posted something that took some research on my part.

Again, if this topic is out of line with the rules (although I don't see it since it is reference to the English rendering of the Latin, as opposed to the Novus Ordo vs Tridentine debate, of which I seem to have slipped back into my Tridentine position) please delete it.

God bless,
Mikey

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 26 2005, 12:49 AM'] Cam Jr., [/quote]


Actually, his name is Michelle...











:rotfl: Sorry...couldn't resist...ah, I miss our paltalk days...


...and Jennie...

[theculturewarrior]

A good place to look, faithful to the Magisterium, would be Adoremus. This is a newspaper on the Restoration of the Liturgy. Google should do the trick.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Apr 26 2005, 06:45 AM'] I'm no Latin scholar, but I'm willing to argue this to the very bottom of the situation, to find out exactly why we went from Lord God of hosts to Holy Lord, God of power and might. [/quote]
If you like, you could ask why the response "Et cum spiritu tuo" went from "And with thy spirit" (which is how it was originally translated into English for liturgical use hundreds of years ago) to "And also with you".

[Q the Ninja]

Eh, my theology professor told the class today that the English translation is terrible.

Man is it! I've been saying this for a long time now, and someone agrees!

[marboniface]

If you think the translation from the latin is bad for the Sanctus... and the Dominus Vobiscum... you should have a look at the words of consecration, which is always hotly debated; and the rest of the canon. There are certain things in the english translation which do not even exist in the latin text: for example the 'commemorations of faith' after the consecration. In the latin text there is only one commemoration given, however, some english "translations" have up to six different commemorations. Weird.

I don't know why ICEL just didn't use the english translations which existed for the old Tridentine Mass, they are always very accurate and beautiful. Mind you, these translations would only be useful for Eucharistic Prayer 1, which is mostly the same as the tridentine Mass in most of its prayers, except for the ones which were left out; and for the new ones added or modified.

I hope that Pope Benedict implements a programme of 'fixing up' some very big holes in the Church's liturgy.

Marboniface

[Paphnutius]

This may be pure rumor, but I heard that a new translation for some of the mass parts being discussed here is in the works and should be out in a few years. Like I said though, might just be rumor.

[Myles Domini]

Its not just a rumour it has been confirmed by Cardinal Arinze and re-iterated on his recent interview with Raymond Arroyo on EWTN's 'World Over' that the ENTIRE Breviary is going to be redone. But ICEL are...under the influence. They've insisted on using the NRSV Catholic Edition (which I guess is an improvement, although it should be the RSV CE) and many have declared they will use inclusive language...We can only hope and pray they dont make a mess of this.

Edited April 26, 2005 by Myles

[Paphnutius]

Yeah I think the RSV CE should be used as well. All in all though, almost anything cuold be an improvement over ICEL's previous translation. In Latin last year we would go over the Euchology every Friday for the following Sunday in Latin. We would then compare it with the ICEL English....ugh. It was most sad

[FutureSoror]

I am very optimistic that very good things will be happening for the liturgy in the future.

[dUSt]

FYI...

[url="http://www.adoremus.org"]http://www.adoremus.org[/url] has a green fidelity rating from Catholic Culture: [url="http://www.catholicculture.org/sites/site_view.cfm?recnum=138"]http://www.catholicculture.org/sites/site_....cfm?recnum=138[/url]

I fully support their cause.

[jezic]

[quote name='FutureSoror' date='Apr 26 2005, 03:56 PM'] I am very optimistic that very good things will be happening for the liturgy in the future. [/quote]
ONe thing that i wonder is that if the church has proclaimed this liturgy and the Congregation for the Doctrine on Worship approved of it, why is there this debate?

the Mass is English is the same sacrifice as it is in Latin. The only difference is the words.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='jezic' date='Apr 26 2005, 04:49 PM'] ONe thing that i wonder is that if the church has proclaimed this liturgy and the Congregation for the Doctrine on Worship approved of it, why is there this debate?

the Mass is English is the same sacrifice as it is in Latin. The only difference is the words. [/quote]
Because of the rule lex orandi lex credindi (sp?)

The law of prayer is the law of faith. It matters a lot how you word things because people put into practice what they hear. Yes they have been approved, but we all have to admit that it was a job hastily done and correct me if I am wrong, it was sent back a few times. How you pray will shape what you believe.