Protestantized Parishes

[dUSt]

Okay, so I live in TX. Needless to say, there are a lot of Protestant churches around here. Sadly, [b]most[/b] of the Catholic churches in the area have molded their parishes based on the local Protestant model. I think the thought is, "Wow, look at how those Protestant churches are attracting people--we should do the same thing!".

And so starts the downfall...

[b]What this means:[/b]
- emphasis is moved from the Eucharist (Christ) to the community
- baptismal fonts are often the most visible aspect in new construction, while the tabernacle (Christ) is less visible
- less importance is placed on the sacraments (Christ) and more emphasis placed on fellowship events

[b]Why it does not work:[/b]
I am reminded of the words spoken by Francis Cardinal Arinze when he was talking about the "need for entertainment" in mass. He said (I'm paraphrasing) that if people want to be entertained they know where to go. It is not mass. If people want to dance, they go to the club. Not mass. People go to mass for Christ.

So. As Catholics, why do we feel that we need to compete with the Protestant church down the street? [b]Let's accept our defeat![/b] They CAN entertain better than us. They CAN organize bigger and flashier fellowship events. They CAN produce a better show!

But so can MTV.

Let's stick to what our purpose is. Let's continue to bring [b]Christ[/b] to the people. That's all we need... and it's the only thing people truly desire.

God bless.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Amen.

I have a great deal of trouble with our protestantizing of parishes. The Truth attracts people all on its own. We don't need to water it down...we need to proclaim it unabashedly. The reason so many people run from the Church is because they have false ideas of it. We need to give them the real Truth, not a false truth.

[Luthien]

:tiphat: I like you.

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

very cool we have such awesome teachings... :headbang:

[homeschoolmom]

Good, authentic fellowship isn't protestantizing. And interesting, doctrinally sound catechesis isn't either. We can do better. But doing better doesn't equal protestantizing...

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Apr 26 2005, 03:57 PM'] Good, authentic fellowship isn't protestantizing. And interesting, doctrinally sound catechesis isn't either. We can do better. But doing better doesn't equal protestantizing... [/quote]
I agree...but shifting the focus from the Eucharist to fellowship...the Eucharist is the summit of fellowship...

Protestantizing is going on and it's not the way to do it.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

Not to mention the fact that the church building designs now are just butt ugly. My parish church is horible and if you removed the tabernacle (which fortunately is up front and center) you would have no idea that it was a Catholic church.

[dUSt]

[quote]Good, authentic fellowship isn't protestantizing.[/quote]
I agree.

[quote]And interesting, doctrinally sound catechesis isn't either.[/quote]
I agree.

[quote]We can do better.[/quote]
I agree.

[quote]But doing better doesn't equal protestantizing...[/quote]
I agree.

I'm confused. Do we disagree?

[jezic]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 26 2005, 12:32 PM'] Okay, so I live in TX. Needless to say, there are a lot of Protestant churches around here. Sadly, [b]most[/b] of the Catholic churches in the area have molded their parishes based on the local Protestant model. I think the thought is, "Wow, look at how those Protestant churches are attracting people--we should do the same thing!".

And so starts the downfall...

[b]What this means:[/b]
- emphasis is moved from the Eucharist (Christ) to the community
- baptismal fonts are often the most visible aspect in new construction, while the tabernacle (Christ) is less visible
- less importance is placed on the sacraments (Christ) and more emphasis placed on fellowship events

[b]Why it does not work:[/b]
I am reminded of the words spoken by Francis Cardinal Arinze when he was talking about the "need for entertainment" in mass. He said (I'm paraphrasing) that if people want to be entertained they know where to go. It is not mass. If people want to dance, they go to the club. Not mass. People go to mass for Christ.

So. As Catholics, why do we feel that we need to compete with the Protestant church down the street? [b]Let's accept our defeat![/b] They CAN entertain better than us. They CAN organize bigger and flashier fellowship events. They CAN produce a better show!

But so can MTV.

Let's stick to what our purpose is. Let's continue to bring [b]Christ[/b] to the people. That's all we need... and it's the only thing people truly desire.

God bless. [/quote]
can we not have both?

how about fellowship events outside of Mass?

Edited April 26, 2005 by jezic

[thatmanjose]

Dust,
I was with you right up until you listed your reasons... I have to respectfully disagree...
Reason 1 (see above) This is a very subjective argument. I also live in TX and see very vibrant communities (mostly Mexican) who love our Lord in the Eucharist.
Reason 2: This is a bit more concrete, but are we forgetting Christ made Baptism the first step in a long road to salvation?
Reason 3: If this is happening during the mass, then i couldn't agree more. However 30 years ago was no different. Churches were the center of community life. The Spanish missions (except for the Alamo) are still vibrant churches to this day. People don't live inside of the community walls anymore but they still center their fellowship around them.
If you feel like Dust, consider whether it is a perception or in fact an observation. If you can point to tangibles then act. Talk to your pastor first and move from there. If it is merely a perception, well then, you may want to pray about it. Satan likes to divide the church with our perceptions... Kinda like when he parks the 78 year old who is 5 words behind everyone in the responses and smells like geritol right next to you at Mass...
pax et bonum,
joey

[dUSt]

[quote]Reason 1 (see above) This is a very subjective argument. I also live in TX and see very vibrant communities (mostly Mexican) who love our Lord in the Eucharist. [/quote]
If reason 1 is my point about shifting focus from the Eucharist to the community, then it is indeed happening. I see it first hand. To your point, there is certainly nothing wrong with vibrant communities who love the Lord in the Eucharist--this is the goal. What I was pointing out is when the community becomes more important than Christ--and I'm sure we can agree that this is bad.

[quote]Reason 2: This is a bit more concrete, but are we forgetting Christ made Baptism the first step in a long road to salvation?[/quote]
But the baptismal font should never be more prominent than the tabernacle, where [b]Christ Himself[/b] is present in physical form.

Visitor to my old church: "Oh wow, look at the pretty waterfall... Where's Jesus?"
My reply was: "Oh, He's back in another building hidden away where nobody can really find Him."

[quote]If you feel like Dust, consider whether it is a perception or in fact an observation.  If you can point to tangibles then act.  Talk to your pastor first and move from there.  If it is merely a perception, well then, you may want to pray about it.  [/quote]
It is actual observation.

God bless.

[dUSt]

[quote name='jezic' date='Apr 26 2005, 03:29 PM'] can we not have both?
how about fellowship events outside of Mass? [/quote]
Yes!!!

As long as we don't have them exclusively to where we eliminate time for adoration.

[jezic]

if that ever happens i am starting a new Catholic church ......

hehe not,

i love Adoration so much. There should be perpetual Adoration at every parish where it is possible. And then larger organized events several times a week.

Adoration, time with Jesus, Lost in Wonder(a song) comes to mind.

if anyone elimates Adoration because of community events that would be really bad and they should be loving locked in the Adoration chapel It is for their own good after all.......

[allis-challmers]

I know that I am very conservative in nature. I don;'t like it when they start to make mass into a show. I would rather have less people in church and have them being dedicated cathlics than have the chuch full and noone really care about why they are there and are just there to have fun

[allis-challmers]

[quote]how about fellowship events outside of Mass? [/quote]



yes but not during mass MASS is for the Eucharist not for a show

[BurkeFan]

We do not make the Mass interesting, the Mass itself is beyond interesting. -Archbishop Burke

[thatmanjose]

[quote]What I was pointing out is when the community becomes more important than Christ--and I'm sure we can agree that this is bad.

[/quote]
Of course it is bad... i'm just asking who is saying community is more important?

[quote]Visitor to my old church: "Oh wow, look at the pretty waterfall... Where's Jesus?"[/quote]
a very funny friend...
Seriously... that's the kind of tangible evidence i'm talking about. These are the kinds of things our pastors, bishops, etc. need to be advised of and acted on.
I was a youth minister way back when and had a teen talk about becoming an architect so he could fix "ugly" churches. Actual observation became action.

Jesus to Francis: "Go rebuild my church"
Francis: "Got rocks?"

pax et bonum,
joey

[dUSt]

[quote name='thatmanjose' date='Apr 26 2005, 04:35 PM'] Of course it is bad... i'm just asking who is saying community is more important? [/quote]
This is why it's so tricky. Nobody in a position of leadership in the "guilty" churches will say that community is more important than the Eucharist, but all of their actions point to this.

For example, just last Sunday... an announcement was made that it was free coffee and donut day. Cool. Every person who filed into the gym to stand in line for donuts walked less than 10ft from the tabernacle on their way in. Not one person even acknowledged that it was there. I wouldn't be suprised if most of the people even know where the tabernacle is at.

[jezic]

alright, that is pretty sad.

[MC Just]

amen!!! Brother Dustin!!! Preach it!!!