A Seeming Crontradiction

[airon]

Hello all. I tried posting this over in the Q&A forum about a week ago and none have responded to it. So, I thought I'd bring it over here and let you guys have a crack at it.

The original post:

Catechism of the Catholic Church 841 said:

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

This seems to indicate that even though some may not adhere to the doctines of the Catholic Church, or receive the sacraments through her, they may still be saved. How is this reconciled with this:

Pope St. Gregory the Great, 590-604:

“The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved."


Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

MORTALIUM ANIMOS
ON RELIGIOUS UNITY.....ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI JANUARY 6, 1928

2.....For which reason conventions, meetings and addresses are frequently arranged by these persons, at which a large number of listeners are present, and at which all without distinction are invited to join in the discussion, both infidels of every kind, and Christians, even those who have unhappily fallen away from Christ or who with obstinacy and pertinacity deny His divine nature and mission. Certainly such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy, since they all in different ways manifest and signify that sense which is inborn in us all, and by which we are led to God and to the obedient acknowledgment of His rule. Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little. turn aside to naturalism and atheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion....

10. So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it.
[url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM"]http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM[/url]

Just wondering.

airon

[Q the Ninja]

Quick question, what does outside of the Church mean?

The Universal Church subsists in the Catholic Church.

[airon]

What I meant by "outside the Church" was outside the Catholic Church. I.e., someone who does not participate in Confession, the Eucharist, Baptism, etc. IOW, anyone who is not Catholic.

[Q the Ninja]

Oh. Well, Catholics haven't ever meant exactly that when they say "outside the Church" and cannot because we confess "ONE Baptism for the forgiveness of sins..."

That means that most Baptized are already in the Catholic Church by that.

Take it a step further, there's also Baptism by desire, through which one is Baptized into the Catholic Church.

[Paphnutius]

Actually we are discussing just such a thing on a protestant board. Pope Benedict XVI document Dominus Jesus spoke on this a little. You might want to read this.

[airon]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Apr 26 2005, 02:47 PM']Oh.  Well, Catholics haven't ever meant exactly that when they say "outside the Church" and cannot because we confess "ONE Baptism for the forgiveness of sins..."

That means that most Baptized are already in the Catholic Church by that.

Take it a step further, there's also Baptism by desire, through which one is Baptized into the Catholic Church.[/quote]
So, then the other sacraments are not necessary for salvation?

[Guest Eremite]

Catholic apologist I. Shawn McIlhenny explains the term "Subsist":

[quote]Subsistence is a specific kind of existence. The Catholic Encyclopaedic Dictionary defines it as "that perfection whereby a being is capable of existing in itself" (Catholic Encyclopaedic Dictionary pg. 507). Subsistence (Lat. subsistare) is an old Scholastic term used to explain the manner whereby God exists. Unlike all other entities, God does not depend on another source for His existence. Instead, He is fully subsistent. Likewise the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church in such wise as she does not depend on any other Church or ecclesial community for she possesses the fullness of grace and truth. The same cannot be said of other Churches or ecclesial communities which depend on the Catholic Church for what degrees of truth that they possess.


So the Church of Christ can be properly said to subsist in the Catholic Church as this denotes existence to the fullest possible extent. Of course since the Church had never fully specified her boundaries explicitly prior to VC II, there was no way of knowing what the exact boundaries of the Church were. This is why the Fathers, Saints, and Doctors of the Church would insist on the necessity of belonging to the Church for one to be saved but they never at the same time declared anyone individually not in the visible Catholic Church to be damned. Think about that for a moment: not one Father said that it was not necessary to belong to the Church for one to be saved. At the same time no one who died outside the Church was ever declared to be damned by the Church in all of history (not even Judas). What this says about the necessity of belonging to the Church for salvation is that while it is a necessity surely that nevertheless God in the end is the final judge of who is inside the Church (be they implicitly or explicitly so) because only He knows the inner person... [/quote]

[url="http://lidless-eye.blogspot.com/2003_02_16_lidless-eye_archive.html"]http://lidless-eye.blogspot.com/2003_02_16...ye_archive.html[/url]

Pope Pius IX expounds on this matter in his 1863 Encyclical "Quanto Conficiamur Moerore":

[quote]Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.[/quote]

Edited April 26, 2005 by Eremite

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='airon' date='Apr 26 2005, 02:06 PM'] So, then the other sacraments are not necessary for salvation? [/quote]
Well, when you die technically you need only to have been Baptized, by water, blood, or desire.

[airon]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Apr 26 2005, 03:00 PM'] Actually we are discussing just such a thing on a protestant board. Pope Benedict XVI document Dominus Jesus spoke on this a little. You might want to read this. [/quote]
Sure, where can I find it?

[Carnanc]

I have heard in some sense, everyone is Catholic insofar as they are part of the human race, which as a whole is included in God's plan for Salvation.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='airon' date='Apr 26 2005, 03:06 PM'] So, then the other sacraments are not necessary for salvation? [/quote]
Of course they are, it is only those who are invincibly ignorant of the Truth which can be saved without union with the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Baptism of Desire is only for those who actually desire baptism, baptism of blood is only for those martyred for the Faith, niether of those really applys to those who are other faiths, some Extraordinary means for salvation [i]MIGHT[/i] be avialable to those who are invincibly ignorant. Likewise those who are baptised and have commited a mortal sin are doomed without the other sacrements. If you are expecting to see a lot of former pagans and protestants in heaven ( of course if you are in heaven you are a Catholic then ) you are going to be sorly disappointed.

[airon]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Apr 26 2005, 03:06 PM']

Pope Pius IX expounds on this matter in his 1863 Encyclical "Quanto Conficiamur Moerore":

[/quote]
I'm sorry, "invicible ignorance?" Is this Biblical?

[airon]

[quote name='slywakka250' date='Apr 26 2005, 03:17 PM'] I have heard in some sense, everyone is Catholic insofar as they are part of the human race, which as a whole is included in God's plan for Salvation. [/quote]
This sounds just like Universal Atonement, which completely eliminates Hell, and is in direct contradiction to Scripture.

[dUSt]

This is actually easy to answer. There is no salvation outside the Catholic church. None. Period.

Please look at the catechism: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

This is [b]not[/b] saying that "Muslims are saved". It is simply stating that they are included in Christ's [b]plan[/b]. Would you deny that Christ calls [b]all[/b] people to conversion?

Also, please continue reading the catechism after the paragraph about Muslims:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]I'm sorry, "invicible ignorance?"[/quote]

St. Paul writes in Romans 2:

[quote]Indeed, those who are physically uncircumcised but carry out the law will pass judgment on you, with your written law and circumcision, who break the law.

One is not a Jew outwardly. True circumcision is not outward, in the flesh.

Rather, one is a Jew inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit, not the letter; his praise is not from human beings but from God.[/quote]

The same principle applies in the New Covenant. Just because someone is baptised doesn't mean they are true Christians (in their heart that is), and just because someone isn't baptised (like those who weren't circumcised), but still do the will of God to the best of their abilities, are accepted by God.

God judges the heart.