Aborted Babies

[Jesus Freak]

Does God take aborted babies into the Kingdom of Heaven with everyone else? They are innocent, true, and they have not entered the world yet and are sinless also. Are they even technically "human"? All humans sin...


Love to hear everyone's opinions,

Freak

[MilesChristi]

Although they have not personally committed any sins, all human babies are in the condition of original sin from the moment of their conception until they receive the sacrament of Baptism.

Jesus tells us that no one may enter the kingdom of God unless he/she is born again of water and the Holy Spirit, which refers to Baptism. The book of Revelation also makes it clear that nothing unclean can enter into the presence of God. Regarding unbaptized aborted babies, all the Church can do is entrust them to the care of our tender, merciful God who loves each one infinitely and desires their salvation.

Remember, God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His sacraments. We can take great hope in this.

Edited April 27, 2005 by MilesChristi

[ThyWillBeDone]

[quote name='MilesChristi' date='Apr 27 2005, 07:33 PM']

Remember, God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His sacraments. We can take great hope in this.[/quote]
It certainly is a source of great hope. In addition we should all remeber to keep the souls are this poor innocent children in our prayers, as well as praying for an end to abortion

[Carnanc]

yes, we have great hope in God's Mercy, and the fact that He is not bound by the Sacraments. The question here is what authority the Church has to make a declaration on this.

[cmotherofpirl]

Mass for Unbaptized Children Who Die
And More on the Papal Funeral

ROME, APRIL 26, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Answered by Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical University.

Q: In view of what is said in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (Nos. 1261 and 1283) is it correct and advisable to offer Mass for the salvation of a baby who died without being baptized? -- H.D., Melbourne, Australia

A: The texts of the Catechism to which our correspondent refers to say the following:

"1261: As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: 'Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,' allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism."

"1283: With respect to children who have died without Baptism, the liturgy of the Church invites us to trust in God's mercy and to pray for their salvation."

The question of the fate of children who die before baptism is one of the mysteries that have long perplexed bishops, theologians and, of course, parents.

The problem has received even greater urgency due to the millions of unborn children killed by abortion.

Up until relatively recently some theologians tried to solve the problem by proposing that such children went to limbo, a state of perfect human happiness but without the beatific vision.

This solution was never fully satisfactory, and is now practically abandoned, above all because it is difficult to conceive a genuine and full human happiness deprived of the divine vision for which God created man.

Recently the Holy Father has entrusted the International Theological Commission with the task of studying this problem in depth and clarify Catholic doctrine as far as possible.

With respect to the advisability of offering the Mass for the "salvation" of unbaptized infants, No. 1283 invites us to pray for their salvation.

Since the Mass is also an intercessory prayer, then it should be possible, in general terms, to offer the Mass for such an intention even though we may not yet be theologically sure of what the concept of salvation might be in this particular case.

Because of the mystery involved, the celebration of funeral rites for an unbaptized child usually requires the permission of the local bishop who considers the pastoral circumstances involved (see Canon 1183.2 of the Code of Canon Law).

These rites are usually done more for the sake of the living than for the dead. And this would be the principal factor to be considered in deciding to permit obsequies, especially when the parents clearly intended to baptize the child.

It is also a factor in deciding whether Mass or another simpler rite would be more appropriate.

It is also recommended that catechesis imparted on such occasions in no way confuse the faithful regarding the doctrine of the necessity of baptism.

The Mass formulas do not generally intercede for the salvation of the child but rather implore that God may comfort the grieving parents with the hope of his mercy, acceptance of his will and the consolation of knowing that he takes care of us.

[Don John of Austria]

THis is a topic beaten to death here on phatmass, I will like you to some threads.

Edited April 28, 2005 by Don John of Austria

[Scofizzle]

Our God is Just and Merciful

[Don John of Austria]

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=25918&hl=abortion"]Here[/url]

and

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=26441&hl=abortion"]here[/url]

for starters.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Scofizzle' date='Apr 27 2005, 09:44 PM'] Our God is Just and Merciful [/quote]
Yes and justice would send them to Hell and Mercy would save them so that is a very unsaticfactory answer.

[MichaelFilo]

Actually, there maybe something more to it. Justice would by default send them to hell, if there was no salvation. But God gave an equal opperunity for all men to be saved. Justly speaking, an unborn child has little he can do to accept or reject Jesus. He has very little choice to take up God's offer for salvation. Thus, justice would allow that whatever chance the child gets (if any) could be suffecient to be saved. This is wher ethe hope comes from. We hope in God's Mercy and God's Justice (which is fair, not condemning by nature) and knowing that the two will never compete, as God's Mercy and Justice don't contradict each other, that God will give the fair judgement.


For the sake of fairness, Mercy might lead them to salvation but Justice equally limits them because they may not accept our Lord Jesus Christ, or at least not do whatever is required of them to accept God's Grace.


What does this jumble of words mean? that Justice and Mercy don't conflict. The fact is, they collaborate, but they can collaborate in two different ways where a limbo would make sense, or at least an eternal rest without God, and the other in which they are saved.

However, there is no reason to send them to Hell (unless the Eternal Rest is somewhere in Hell) as neither Justice or Mercy would dictate thus. However, we beg God's Mercy on their souls, and their salvation.

God bless,
Mikey

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]But God gave an equal opperunity for all men to be saved. Justly speaking, an unborn child has little he can do to accept or reject Jesus[/quote].



Well While that is a nice feel good Idea it is not in keeping with Scripture or Tradition, all men certianly do not have an equal chance to be saved, that is simply moderist propoganda. Some men are advantaged some are not, the Apostles knew jesus they saw his miricles and witnessed his power, that is certianly not equal to the kids in my class who don't even know what religion jesus founded.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Apr 27 2005, 10:19 PM'] Actually, there maybe something more to it. Justice would by default send them to hell, if there was no salvation. But God gave an equal opperunity for all men to be saved. Justly speaking, an unborn child has little he can do to accept or reject Jesus. He has very little choice to take up God's offer for salvation. Thus, justice would allow that whatever chance the child gets (if any) could be suffecient to be saved. This is wher ethe hope comes from. We hope in God's Mercy and God's Justice (which is fair, not condemning by nature) and knowing that the two will never compete, as God's Mercy and Justice don't contradict each other, that God will give the fair judgement.


For the sake of fairness, Mercy might lead them to salvation but Justice equally limits them because they may not accept our Lord Jesus Christ, or at least not do whatever is required of them to accept God's Grace.


What does this jumble of words mean? that Justice and Mercy don't conflict. The fact is, they collaborate, but they can collaborate in two different ways where a limbo would make sense, or at least an eternal rest without God, and the other in which they are saved.

However, there is no reason to send them to Hell (unless the Eternal Rest is somewhere in Hell) as neither Justice or Mercy would dictate thus. However, we beg God's Mercy on their souls, and their salvation.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
Your assumptions about Mercy and justice are simply wrong, the Church has very simply stated that all deserve to go to Hell and that Justice would send us there. Mercy has already been shown in that there is any chance for salvation.

[MichaelFilo]

Actually, it isn't so modernist as it is true. God willed that all men be saved. God didn't create any man to be damned. Albiet, I will receed my point, it isn't an equal oppertunity, but at least all men can be saved, so even aborted babies have some chance.

God bless,
Mikey

[Don John of Austria]

No, God desires that all men be saved, but we have no knowledge of any way an unbaptized person can be saved, God might simply desire that all men be baptizeed as Christians. We hope that aborted babies can be saved, but we know of no way that they can be. Extraordinary means that we have no direct knowledge of is hardly something to pin our hopes on. I pray for Limbo, because Hell while Just is just such an unpleasent possibility.