I have 3 questions

[toledo_jesus]

Describe and critically assess the Calvinist doctrine of "limited atonement"

Can you point me to good critical sources? Paper due on May 2.

[desertwoman]

www.totareformanda.org

I know that they pretty much have a calvinist teaching there.

[toledo_jesus]

I tried that site but it didn't work for me...

[journeyman]

google

calvin limited atonement

my my - hit one, scholarly looking defense; hit three, calvin's error of

and 28,798 more . . .

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='journeyman' date='Apr 28 2005, 12:22 AM'] google

calvin limited atonement

my my - hit one, scholarly looking defense; hit three, calvin's error of

and 28,798 more . . . [/quote]
well I was looking for Catholic sources. www.biblebelievers.org kind of scared me away

[journeyman]

error is error, whether a biblebeliever says it (hey, don't we believe in the bible?) or a catholic . . . and that guy was mean enough to reduce Calvinism to a "philosophy" from theology because it was just so wrong how about [url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp[/url]

refine the search to also include catholic commentary

the best way to learn what you are preparing to critique is to read its defenses . . .

seems to me phatcatholic has a lot of stuff in the research pages about other philsophies

[toledo_jesus]

any calvinists on the board?

[Pennypacker11]

I am Catholic and not calvinist, but here is a summary of their teaching:
b]T[/b]otal Depravity - Due to the Fall, all men are spiritually dead (Romans 5:10-12). Both the mind and conscience are defiled (Titus 1:15). They do not seek God (Romans 3:12), and are unable to do so (Romans 8:7). They are blind (2 Corinthians 4:4) and hate the Light that is Christ, so will not come to Him (John 3:19). They are, by nature, children of wrath (Ephesians 2:1-4). We can no more do good than can a leopard change his spots (Jeremiahs 13:23). A natural man cannot even understand the things of God, for they are foolishness to him (1 Corinthians 2:14).

[b]U[/b]nconditional Election - Before the foundations of the world, God chose us for salvation, according to His purpose (Ephesians 1:4-6). Those appointed to eternal life believe (Acts 13:48). He chose us to be saved by sanctification and belief (2 Thess 2:13). His choice is not based in any way on man, whether man's belief or works (Romans 9:16). Those whom He has passed over and not chosen have earned death by their sin (Romans 6:23), and are left in their depravity; they do not believe, because they are not of His sheep (John 10:26). They are vessels prepared for destruction (Romans 9:22).

[b]L[/b]imited Atonement - Christ gave His life as a ransom for many (Matthew 20:28), that His sacrifice would purchase many captives of sin. He laid His life down for His sheep (John 10:15), to actually save His Bride (Ephesians 5:25-27). He has accomplished redemption for His people (Luke 1:68), so that redemption is a finished work. He was slain, and purchased for God with His blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation (Revelation 5:9), purchasing people rather than the possibility of salvation. With His death He intended to purify for Himself a people (Titus 2:14), not all people.

[b]I[/b]rresistible Grace - God has prepared a plan to apply the benefits of Christ's sacrifice, to effect His salvation, upon His elect; this plan is absolute -- they are called, justified, and glorified, with no break in the chain (Romans 8:28-30). None can come to the Father unless he is given (John 6:37), unless it is granted (John 6:65), and unless he is drawn (John 6:44); the lack of this giving, drawing, and granting is why the reprobate will never truly believe (John 6:36, 43, 64). He effectually calls each one of His chosen (2 Thessalonians 2:14), so that they are reborn (John 3:3-7), going from death to life (Ephesians 2:4-5). This is why Paul endured everything for the elect, that they would obtain salvation (2 Timothy 2:10) through his preaching, which leads to faith, both necessary instruments God uses in His plan to save His elect (Romans 10:14).

[b]P[/b[erseverance of the Saints - God is at work in His elect, both to will and to work for His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). He who began a good work in us will be faithful to complete it until the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:6). All who come to Him, who are drawn, who are given, to whom salvation is granted, will be raised up on the last day by Christ (John 6:44), He will lose none (John 6:40); he who comes to Christ will in no way be cast out (John 6:37). Absolutely nothing can possibly prevent God from saving His elect (Romans 8:28-39). No one can snatch them out of His hand (John 10:27-29).

Here is a very brief response:
It is clear in Scripture that God died for the entire world (John 1:29; 3:16). God desires that all would repent (2 Peter 3:9) and wants all men to be saved and know the truth (1 Tim. 2:4). Just as all have fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), all have been justified freely by his grace (Romans 3:24). The grace is not withheld for the chosen few, but the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men (Titus 2:11) since Christ tasted death for everyone (Hebrews 2:9). The parable of the wedding feast (Matt 22) makes it clear that there are those who refuse the gift of eternal life and do not accept the invitation. The All-Loving God desires that all would be in a relationship with Him and Christ died on the Christ to enable this.

Incidently, Limited Atonement probably is the hardest part of TULIP for Calvinist's to show scripturally. Instead, I believe that it more or less flows out of the others. If one accepts T, U, I, and P, with a forensic understanding of salvation the L has to follow.

[Dave]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Apr 28 2005, 09:08 AM'] any calvinists on the board? [/quote]
Too bad you didn't come to Phatmass during August or September of 2003. A Calvinist whose user name was mustbenothing came to this board to try and debate with us. But all is not lost. You might want to do a search for posts by him on this site.

[Pennypacker11]

[quote name='Dave' date='Apr 28 2005, 01:53 PM'] Too bad you didn't come to Phatmass during August or September of 2003. A Calvinist whose user name was mustbenothing came to this board to try and debate with us. But all is not lost. You might want to do a search for posts by him on this site. [/quote]
mustbenothing is actually the source for my post, well, him and a couple other people who helped me put it together.

If you are really interested in Calvinism, there are a bunch of people at www.christianguitar.org; that is where mustbenothing used to be.