Bush more Catholic than JP2?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]You're right about the Kurds, sorry for mixing that up. Because of abortion? We're not the only country allowing abortion. Democracy not lasting there isnt neccisarily a good thing. The reason why it wont last is because it's highly unrealistic to think the sunnis, kurds, and shiite's are not going to have a civil war. and going through a civil war. [/quote]


Only one or not we are guilty of more murders with government approval than the Nazi's and now we are even competing with Stalin on the mass murder record books. Democracy gives the people what they want, if they want evil then it becomes evil if they want good then it becomes good, problem is people inherintly tend to evil... it's called Original Sin

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Why was John Paul II against the war? What did he suggest about the human rights abuses going on in Iraq?

[Jaime]

Of course when you throw in the fact that Bush is prochoice, the whole argument falls apart.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='May 4 2005, 07:45 PM'] Of course when you throw in the fact that Bush is prochoice, the whole argument falls apart. [/quote]
The fact that he beilieves abortion should be avialable in cases of rape and incest, that of course is wrong, but that hardly makes him prochoice. He doesn't believe in any choice when you already made the choice to have sex.

[musturde]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 4 2005, 06:34 PM']

Only one or not we are guilty of more murders with government approval than the Nazi's and now we are even competing with Stalin on the mass murder record books. Democracy gives the people what they want, if they want evil then it becomes evil if they want good then it becomes good, problem is people inherintly tend to evil... it's called Original Sin [/quote]
Yes, that is one strong point on Sadams rule, the unborn babies were protected. However, the form of rule was still horrible. I don't neccisarily think democracies the best form of government there especially since i mention it will not take very long for it to fall but I believe a democracy can be good if the people in it have good ideas and intentions. In America everyone is way too lax. Dictatorship is whatever one man wants instead of whatever many people want. Just because Sadam was protecting unborn babies doesn't make him less evil. Abortion has long been a taboo in Iraq and I don't expect that to suddenly change.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='musturde' date='May 4 2005, 08:01 PM'] Yes, that is one strong point on Sadams rule, the unborn babies were protected. However, the form of rule was still horrible. I don't neccisarily think democracies the best form of government there especially since i mention it will not take very long for it to fall but I believe a democracy can be good if the people in it have good ideas and intentions. In America everyone is way too lax. Dictatorship is whatever one man wants instead of whatever many people want. Just because Sadam was protecting unborn babies doesn't make him less evil. Abortion has long been a taboo in Iraq and I don't expect that to suddenly change. [/quote]
It was long taboo here didn't take long at all to change. Homosexual acts where long Taboo here, now we are debating gay marraige, I think you vastly underestemate the hman capasity to be vile selfish hedonist.

And certianly the fact that he protected the unborn made him less evil than had he allowed there distruction, I will say it since no one else will Sadam was less evil than John Kerry. At least Saddam had a reason for his atrocities.

[Jaime]

[quote] The fact that he beilieves abortion should be avialable in cases of rape and incest, that of course is wrong, but that hardly makes him prochoice.[/quote]

Sorry Don but that is exactly what makes him prochoice.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='May 4 2005, 08:06 PM']
Sorry Don but that is exactly what makes him prochoice. [/quote]
NO it doesn't he expressly doesn't believe in "choice", He believe is what he thinks is the protection of a female victim, his protection is misplaced but it is not the same as saying that women have the "right to choose" it is not the same thing at all. Agian it is wroneg but it is notthe same thing.

[Oik]

Don,

People have been praying to individuals who were not cannonized for thousnads of years, that's what a 'cult' around a saint is all about.

In fact, for a miracle to be attributed to someone who is not a saint, a person would have to do exactly that, pray to a person who is not a saint.

Don't spaz out. Of course, one should always pray for JPII and shouldn't assume. However, it is licit to privately have this devotion.

The illict instance you are referring to is in the public/liturgy.

[Don John of Austria]

It is not licit without Church approval, a cult is formed in a licit manner only after the Church has declared someone Venerable and given people the right to pray to that person in a private devotion, further this forum IS public, and what is said her impacts those who read it, it is improper to make any statment assuming JPII is in heaven at all, that is persumptious and violates the teachings of the Church on the matter.

[argent_paladin]

All this talk about the pope being a saint and Bush being pro-choice is irrelevant. The article's one and only point was that Bush is more conservative in regards to capital punishment and war only. and again, I think that Pius XI would agree with Bush more than JPII and Julian II certainly would. Popes were executing their own citizens and going to war not too long ago. Again, it is not a moral judgement on JP2, he obviously has very good reasons for deveoping tradition, but one must admit that the tradition *has* developed. The virtue of the pope who developed it or the status of the president who clings to the older tradition is irrelevant and ad hominem.

[Don John of Austria]

Tradition may have developed or it may have been an aboration, that will be left for history to tell us, I would say that we should not expect to understand that within our lifetimes.

And I am not attacking JPII I simply object to people refering to him as a Saint when that has not been even broached by the Church.

[Jaime]

To suggest that Bush is more Catholic than JPII on any matter is, quite frankly, incredibly offensive.

It is the Catechism not the Holy Father that states that capital punishment should only be used in extreme circumstances. Bush's record on capital punishment is so far removed from extreme... I don't even know how to respond!!

As far as the Just War argument, to suggest that Bush's views on just war are more on target than the Holy Father is a product of western thinking and ego.

Bush isn't Catholic. I don't expect him to share my views. But to say that he's "more Catholic" on particular issues is a waste of time and energy.

[MichaelFilo]

Don't be offended. Popes have a history for taking less than Catholic positions on things. For instance, Liberius (352-66AD). The first pope to not be cannonized. Why? Well, he had Arian sympathies.

Popes can be wrong about matters of Faith and morals when they speak alone and not ex cathedra.

As to what I actually think, I havne't read the thread, but felt my correction was neccessary as to disrupt the current flow of thought that the pope is automatically Holy to the 5th degree. Historically speaking, that is laughable.

God bless,
Mikey

[musturde]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 4 2005, 10:44 PM'] Don't be offended. Popes have a history for taking less than Catholic positions on things. For instance, Liberius (352-66AD). The first pope to not be cannonized. Why? Well, he had Arian sympathies.

Popes can be wrong about matters of Faith and morals when they speak alone and not ex cathedra.

As to what I actually think, I havne't read the thread, but felt my correction was neccessary as to disrupt the current flow of thought that the pope is automatically Holy to the 5th degree. Historically speaking, that is laughable.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
Mikey, this is about the Pope being against the war on Iraq. That's why he's being criticized. I mean, I do believe the Pope can be wrong(to a degree...) but I think you'd agree with him on this one.