Bush more Catholic than JP2?

[Jaime]

Michael

The article is speaking about JPII not popes in general. And quite frankly the article is wrong on several points.

The Holy Father , present and past, can obviously be wrong on particulars. But to say that JPII's views on the death penalty and just war were contrary to Church teaching is offensive.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='May 4 2005, 11:54 PM'] Michael

The article is speaking about JPII not popes in general. And quite frankly the article is wrong on several points.

The Holy Father , present and past, can obviously be wrong on particulars. But to say that JPII's views on the death penalty and just war were contrary to Church teaching is offensive. [/quote]
Then be offended. But the fact of the matter, as even George Weigel (the Holy Father's greatest apologist) admitted, Pope John Paul II is, for all practical purposes, a pacifist. Pacifism is not the traditional Catholic position on war, nor is the Holy Father's position on the death penalty. As to whether the Catechism or the Pope said such and such: the Catechism was merely quoting from a statement made by the Holy Father. I'm not attacking him for this. I'm merely pointing out that his opposition to the death penalty and to the war does not bind me, or anyone else, to the same opinion (I happen to not care much for the war, but that is for other reasons). These things fall within the realm of prudential judgement. Cardinal Ratzinger even stated that these are issues upon which good Catholics may disagree. The Holy Father had certain opinions that are based on the facts as he saw them. In the case of the death penalty (and to some extent, the war), I think his facts are wrong, or at the very least, disputable.

[Jaime]

[quote]As to whether the Catechism or the Pope said such and such: the Catechism was merely quoting from a statement made by the Holy Father.[/quote]

See that's the problem I have with the article. The Catechism doesn't "merely" do anything. If the Holy Father is quoted as offering an opinion, that's one thing. If its in the Catechism, then we as Catholics are called to assent to it. It is no longer opinion or a regurgitating a quote.

[corban711]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='May 5 2005, 01:19 AM'] I'm merely pointing out that his opposition to the death penalty and to the war does not bind me, or anyone else, to the same opinion (I happen to not care much for the war, but that is for other reasons). These things fall within the realm of prudential judgement. Cardinal Ratzinger even stated that these are issues upon which good Catholics may disagree. The Holy Father had certain opinions that are based on the facts as he saw them. [/quote]
I agree with this. That is exactly why I think the article was pretty lame. In both cases, the Holy Father has affirmed the constant teaching of the Church and he has given his judgements on how to apply that teaching today. It is a matter of judgement which can be disagreed on, even among good, orthodox Catholics as long as the teaching of the Church is stated and upheld. To say Bush is "more Catholic" than JPII is certainly not the case, since the issues at hand are matters of judgement, not doctrine. We are talking about matters of prudence. The Pope did not think it wise to go into Iraq and he doesn't see it to be necessary to apply the death penalty at this time in western society. That does not mean he is less Catholic.

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 4 2005, 10:52 AM'] He's not crazy he's right, JPII broke with Traditional Catholic Teaching on the Matter of War and on Capital Punishment. However the Protections given the Church by the Holy Spirit prevented him from making any substantial change to Church Doctrine on the subject. As for the US Catholic Bishops well, there stance on war since the late 60's has been so far out that it has verged on heretical, that is not to say it is herestical they have carefully danced around that line but the " reasonable chance for success" criteria directly challenges Divine Providence, for " if God is with us, who can stand agianst" and so on. The guy is right. What is truely upseting about this is that a Brit was right about it. [/quote]
Regardless, we owe an ascent of mind and will.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='May 5 2005, 01:27 AM']
See that's the problem I have with the article. The Catechism doesn't "merely" do anything. If the Holy Father is quoted as offering an opinion, that's one thing. If its in the Catechism, then we as Catholics are called to assent to it. It is no longer opinion or a regurgitating a quote. [/quote]
The Catachism is not infallable and we are not required to give the assent of will to it. We are required to obey that is all.

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 4 2005, 04:14 PM'] It is inappropriate on a level of which I cannot begin to express, the man has not even been declared venerable yet. He certianly would disapprove of the behavior. Likewise is this constant "JPII pray for us" nonsense. Until the Church makes a statement permiting us to pray to him it is an illicit practice. [/quote]
Sadly I had a futile thread on this.

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 5 2005, 02:09 AM'] The Catachism is not infallable and we are not required to give the assent of will to it. We are required to obey that is all. [/quote]
Lumen Gentium 25 disagrees with you:

[quote]This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.[/quote]

[Don John of Austria]

Fortunantly Lumen Gentium is not infallable either, it could be altered with but a word from the Pope however it is irrelevent here because parts of the Catachism are in contradiction to that which has been declared infallably.


Further The statements of the Supereme Pontiff of 1000 years ago hold as much Magisterial authority as those of today's Pontiff and many times such things are contradictory. How can one assent in mind to contradictory statements?

[cmotherofpirl]

Wrong.

[Don John of Austria]

Whats wrong?

[Apotheoun]

I completely support the Church's traditional doctrine on the right of the State to execute a criminal, and on the power of the State to protect the common good through the use of military power.

[Timothy]

[quote]CANTON, Mar 18, 03 (CWNews.com) -- An American Catholic bishop has forbidden his flock from participating or cooperating in military action against Iraq, under pain of mortal sin.

Bishop John Michael Botean, the head of the Romanian Catholic eparchy (diocese) of St. George in Canton, Ohio-- which has jurisdiction over all Byzantine-rite Romanian Catholics living in the US-- invoked the full measure of his authority in a Lenten Letter to his people. The bishop declared with "moral certainty" that the proposed attack on Iraq "does not meet even the minimal standards of the Catholic just-war theory."

[/quote]

[quote]US President George W. Bush has assumed a heavy moral burden by saying his intention to go to war against Iraq, the Vatican has warned. [/quote]

[quote]In his Sunday Angelus audience on March 16, Pope John Paul II issued his most urgent call to date for a peaceful resolution of the crisis in Iraq.

In a break from his prepared text, the Pope reminded his listeners that he had personal experience with the horrors of war. He insisted that believers must unite in rejecting war as an option, saying "Never again war!" However, the Pontiff also acknowledged the need for Iraqi compliance with international disarmament demands. In a "pressing appeal" addressed to Baghdad, he reminded the Iraqi government leadership of its "urgent duty fully to cooperate with the international community, to eliminate every motive for armed intervention."

The Pope continued to insist that diplomatic efforts could bear fruit. "There is still time to negotiate," he said. "There is still room for peace."

Cardinal Laghi, in an interview published by the Italian daily Corriere della Sera, had summarized the concerns of the Holy See by pointing to four negative consequences of military action: "the suffering people will face, the future for the Middle East, the dialogue with Islam, and the consequences for the United Nations."

The suffering of civilians would be the saddest consequence of war, the cardinal said. But he also predicted that military action would undermine the cause of peace in the volatile Middle East as a whole, and he questioned whether an attack led by the US would decrease the influence and authority of the UN.

However, Cardinal Laghi said that "the most delicate factor" involved in the crisis is the reaction of the Muslim world. Referring to this weekend's meeting among the leaders of the US, Britain, and Spain, the cardinal observed: "If the three countries that met in the Azores go to war, that will appear to the Islamic world as a war by Christian countries against a Muslim country. Tensions will be heightened, and that could lead to an increase in terrorism."
[/quote]

These were quoted from CWNEWS

Edited May 5, 2005 by Timothy

[Apotheoun]

It is important to remember what Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) said to the US Bishops in July of 2004:

[quote name='Letter to the US Bishops on denying pro-abortion Politicians Communion' date=' no. 3']Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia.  For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion.  While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment.  There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.[/quote]

A Catholic is not required to accept the prudential judgments of the Pope, and so he may disagree with Pope John Paul II's views on the when to use capital punishment or on when to go to war.

[Jaime]

[quote]A Catholic is not required to accept the prudential judgments of the Pope, and so he may disagree with Pope John Paul II's views on the when to use capital punishment or on when to go to war.[/quote]

Absolutely correct.

However to use the phrase "more Catholic" in regards to Bush is wrong and offensive in more ways than I can count.