Holding of Hands

[return2truth]

Having returned to the Catholic Church after a many years absense, I have discovered a great many changes in the church I attend and I am wondering if they reflect changes in the church in general or are only something that seems to be a regional phenomena.

My issue is this: in my church, people raise their hands toward heaven during the "Our Father." If they are adjacent to another person they will instead hold hands, sometimes in a whole chain that goes across the pews. I don't ever remember doing this when I was younger. Is this something newly added to the liturgy or is it just something people have begun to do independent of it.

Another thing that irks me are people who return to the pews after receiving the Eucharist and then remain standing. I don't remember this either. I remember either kneeling or sitting. According to the GIRM, I am right and that the proper posture after receiving the Eucharist is to kneel or sit in quite contemplation. Yet nearly 99% of the congregation returns to the pews and stand.

Should I set a proper example or have things simply changed beyond what I remembered them to be?

[thessalonian]

Kneel! Out of reverence (not neccessarliy to set an example). Hopefully they will see an example. If not at least you are showing proper reverence.

The holding hands during the Our Fathers is common. I don't particularly care for it as it is a sign of unity during a time in the Mass when the greatest sign of unity, the Eucharist, is on the altar. It's annoying but I wouldn't sweat it too much though. There are bigger problems in the Church. Welcome back.

Edited May 4, 2005 by thessalonian

[Nathan]

My parish doesn't do either.

And yes, you're absolutely correct, people should be kneeling or sitting in quiet contemplation after receiving the Eucharist.

[ironmonk]

There are a lot of abuses in many parishes.

In regards to holding hands....


[quote][b]5.2  Holding Hands during the Our Father[/b]
Holding hands during the Our Father has become commonplace, but it is an illicit addition to the Liturgy. Clarifications and Interpretations of the GIRM ["Notitiae" Vol. XI (1975) p. 226] explains:

". . .holding hands is a sign of intimacy and not reconciliation, and as such disrupts the flow of the Sacramental signs in the Mass which leads to the Sacramental sign of intimacy with Christ and our neighbor, Holy Communion."

[b]112. QUERY 2:[/b] In some places there is a current practice whereby those taking part in the Mass replace the giving of the sign of peace at the deacon's invitation by holding hands during the singing of the Lord's Prayer. Is this acceptable?

REPLY: The prolonged holding of hands is of itself a sign of communion rather than of peace. Further, it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics. Nor is there any clear explanation of why the sign of peace at the invitation: "Let us offer each other the sign of peace" should be supplanted in order to bring a different gesture with less meaning into another part of the Mass: the sign of peace is filled with meaning, graciousness, and Christian inspiration. Any substitution for it must be repudiated.



From:
[url="http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/articles/badliturgy.htm"]http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/articles/badliturgy.htm[/url][/quote]



Another:

[quote][b]holding hands during Mass[/b]
Question from dave harle on 3/26/2005: 

hi-is it appropriate or proper to hold hands during the Lord's Prayer during Mass? thanks


Answer by Catholic Answers on 3/27/2005: 
Dear Dave,

It is not a rubric in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal. It is generally not wise to improvise in the Sacred Liturgy, unless the law allows for it. Such law is of the greatest importance because it concerns the most exalted and sublime things that human being are priveleged to do, i.e., participate in divine worship.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.[/quote]


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Ellenita]

Oh it's so an American thing! You won't catch the British holding hands....at any stage ever....and none of that hugging stuff either....a polite shake of the hand during the peace is quite enough thank you very much!

[Jazz4jesus]

I have always knelt (sp). When i came to my little catholic masses at college I encountered many differences. I had to remember when to kneel cause i found my fellow students and some adults dont do it.

As for the holding hands I went from a Large Parish that held hands (and did sign of peace afterwards, they wernt combined) to the small parish that didnt. I didnt much care about that change. I just passed it off as whatever

[return2truth]

If it is wrong, how can I be the ONLY person at church who knows this, including the priests. I've been away from the church for 14 years and yet seem to know more about what's going on than 90% of the people in attendance. Should I talk to the priest and tell him, "Hey, I don't want to tell you how to run your services but, you need someone to tell you how to run your services."

[Noel's angel]

lol, just tell him that you are a bit concerned about these things, ask him why the parish is the way it is and tell him why you are concerned. Don't worry about it, if you approach him in the right way and don't go in all guns blazing, then it'll be fine

[jesus=my_homeboy]

As for the kneeling, there has been much confustion (at least in my area: Northwest Indiana). Here's the thing...
I don't know if all of the U.S. has implemented them yet, but there have been some changes within the past year or so. From what I've heard, the U.S. is actually rather late in making these changes, and many people are very opposed to them. The biggest one is standing during Communion. It is supposed to be a sign of community because that is one of the things Communion stands for. Everyone is supposed to stand while everyone else receives Communion. It is a show of support and that we are all together as a community. After everyone is seated, there is supposed to be a long period of silence (5 min or so) for silent prayer. The problem with this change is that many people are stubborn and won't do it and/or each priest/parish seems to be doing something different. Because of these things, there is a lot of confusion in something that is supposed to be bringing us all together. I don't know what areas have implemented these changes...I think it is up to each Bishop. Hope this helps clear things up.

[return2truth]

[quote name='jesus=my_homeboy' date='May 4 2005, 11:38 AM'] As for the kneeling, there has been much confustion (at least in my area: Northwest Indiana).  Here's the thing...
I don't know if all of the U.S. has implemented them yet, but there have been some changes within the past year or so.  From what I've heard, the U.S. is actually rather late in making these changes, and many people are very opposed to them.  The biggest one is standing during Communion.  It is supposed to be a sign of community because that is one of the things Communion stands for.  Everyone is supposed to stand while everyone else receives Communion.  It is a show of support and that we are all together as a community.  After everyone is seated, there is supposed to be a long period of silence (5 min or so) for silent prayer.  The problem with this change is that many people are stubborn and won't do it and/or each priest/parish seems to be doing something different.  Because of these things, there is a lot of confusion in something that is supposed to be bringing us all together.  I don't know what areas have implemented these changes...I think it is up to each Bishop.  Hope this helps clear things up. [/quote]
According to the GIRM, you are supposed to kneel or sit. Are you saying an official change in the GIRM has been made that I am not aware of? If so, please cite your source so that I may confirm this new modification. At my church, music is played constantly during Communion and the Mass resumes immediately upon the return of the last few recipients to their pews. The only time available for contemplation is while waiting for everyone else to finish.

Edited May 4, 2005 by return2truth

[jesus=my_homeboy]

I'm not taking anything from the GIRM...I'm just saying what my priests have told us (in both the Dioceses of Gary and Lafayette...I believe Indianapolis is the same too), and this is what the bishops have told the priests. I'm pretty sure all of these guys aren't making this up just to keep us on our toes (no pun intended ).

[franciscanheart]

i havent heard any of that. we were told that it was more appropriate to stand while receiving but that using the altar rail to kneel was acceptable if we chose to do so. there was nothing said about standing while everyone else receives.

and the our father... when i was a young girl in catholic school they taught us to hold hands. i do not hold hands now that i understand the true way Mass is supposed to be carried out but i get a lot of criticism for it by my family and others at my parish. rude looks always accompany my not holding hands. i wish our priests would do something about this!! im too scared to go ask my priest about it. he is very harsh. maybe i should smell of elderberries it up and say something but do you say something to the priest or write the bishop?

*shrug* things needa change around here.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='jesus=my_homeboy' date='May 4 2005, 01:38 PM'] As for the kneeling, there has been much confustion (at least in my area: Northwest Indiana). Here's the thing...
I don't know if all of the U.S. has implemented them yet, but there have been some changes within the past year or so. From what I've heard, the U.S. is actually rather late in making these changes, and many people are very opposed to them. The biggest one is standing during Communion. It is supposed to be a sign of community because that is one of the things Communion stands for. Everyone is supposed to stand while everyone else receives Communion. It is a show of support and that we are all together as a community. After everyone is seated, there is supposed to be a long period of silence (5 min or so) for silent prayer. The problem with this change is that many people are stubborn and won't do it and/or each priest/parish seems to be doing something different. Because of these things, there is a lot of confusion in something that is supposed to be bringing us all together. I don't know what areas have implemented these changes...I think it is up to each Bishop. Hope this helps clear things up. [/quote]
All the changes should have been fully implemented in 2004.

You are NOT supposeed to stand after Communion, that is NOT one of the changes. THat is something a few renegade bishops are doing.
It is not part of the Mass. We are free to sit or kneel as we choose.

And you are not required to hold ANYBODYS hand at the Our Father.

:angry:

[Ash Wednesday]

I can't stand standing after the consecration. Reverence for Eucharist to me is more important than all this "community" loopyness. And I can't stand holding hands. It's cheesy protestantized Americanism. There's always a "hand thruster" who grabs your hand or throws their hand at you....

[corban711]

i was so happy a few years ago (it was a few years before the new GIRM was coming) when our priests said that we would no longer hold hands during the Our Father. they announced it at all Sunday Masses for a couple weeks in a row, asking the people to obey the Church. our priests are amazing! it made a lot of people mad. also, when not holding hands, the people are not supposed to hold their hands out either. the arms open is how the priest prays, and it is not indicated for us to do so.

[Noel's angel]

I'm glad i live in Northern ireland and not America-some of your priests are crazy....

[PennyLane]

The hand holding bothers me... but we also shouldn't draw attention to ourselves during the mass...

I always kneel, if nothing else, it's out of respect.

I noticed when ppl started standing, more talking was going on and more distracting behaviors... when people were kneeling they were at least PRETENDING to pray

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' date='May 4 2005, 12:02 PM'] rude looks always accompany my not holding hands. [/quote]
This is why holding hands is not a good idea. There is nothing inherently wrong with holding hands at this point of mass. The whole personal innovation argument is weak in that you would have to stop all people from crossing themselves after the Penitential Rite (that's not in the rubrics) and other such small innovations. The problem is that holding hands is not a personal innovation. It's an extra-personal innovation. The person sitting next to me will not get offended whether or not I make the sign of the cross at a certain time. It is true that the Our Father is a time of Unity (as is the entire mass). However, disunity can be introduced into the mass by someone simply not doing something that one is not instructed to do. The hand-thrusters will give you rude looks if you don't participate in their personal innovation. I just have to say that if you do choose to hold hands, do not get offended when the person next to you doesn't want to hold hands.

Besides, the whole raise your hands and squeeze innovation is taking it too far. What's next, swing your partner dosey-doh?

[thessalonian]

I really don't think that the holding hands thing is worth a fight. As I said before there are much more serious things to worry about in the Church today. The kneeling is a little more serious and would not be adverse to mentioning it to him. Likely though he knows. Some parishes took out kneelers back in the 70's and 80's. I know in our diocese the new Bishop has given a dispensation from kneeling for those parishes that did this before he became bishop. I still kneel if I go to one of those parishes.

[Noel's angel]

just tell people you have a skin condition-they won't want to hold hands with you then