Optimal Government Structure

[philothea]

I don't know if this will be a debate or not, but I thought it'd be safest here just in case.

Comments in the past by MichaelFilo and recently by Don John have made me think I might get some good suggestions from the pham --

[b]If an entirely Catholic nation were formed, what would the best government for it?[/b]

I am asking because I am writing a novel where this happens.... and you guys seem to have thought about this in more depth than I have.

Any help appreciated (and credited, if it comes to that!). Feel free to ask questions if you need clarification on the setup.

[Don John of Austria]

A Fuedal monarchy in which the Monarch is restricted by Custom. I say Fuedal because a strong nobility is capable of keeping the power of the monarch in check and preventng the misuse of power. Simularly the King should offically recognize the Authority of the Church and deffer to Her in matters within her realm.

[Don John of Austria]

Obviously the structure has little to do with titles, a King can be called a King or a duberflochy it doesn't change what he is same with nobility, realisticly I think the ancient titles might meet more resistance than the ancient roles.

[Nathan]

Andrew Greeley 4 President!

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Nathan' date='May 4 2005, 07:25 PM'] Andrew Greeley 4 President! [/quote]
You sir are a sick sick man.

[philothea]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 4 2005, 07:15 PM'] A Fuedal monarchy in which the Monarch is restricted by Custom. I say Fuedal because a strong nobility is capable of keeping the power of the monarch in check and preventng the misuse of power. Simularly the King should offically recognize the Authority of the Church and deffer to Her in matters within her realm. [/quote]
Okay, thanks.

Would the succession be (when possible) hereditary?

And yeah, obedience to the Church would be part of the founding charter. I don't know about a title yet.

Thanks again!

[philothea]

[quote name='Nathan' date='May 4 2005, 07:25 PM'] Andrew Greeley 4 President! [/quote]
Nooooooo!

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='philothea' date='May 4 2005, 07:26 PM'] Okay, thanks.

Would the succession be (when possible) hereditary?

And yeah, obedience to the Church would be part of the founding charter. I don't know about a title yet.

Thanks again! [/quote]
Historicly hereditary monarchies last longer and performed better than those which had electors. I think the danger of getting a bad king would be mittigated if there was some form of either compatancy test, or perhaps better some a requirment for approval by the Church.

[philothea]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 4 2005, 07:31 PM'] Historicly hereditary monarchies last longer and performed better than those which had electors. I think the danger of getting a bad king would be mittigated if there was some form of either compatancy test, or perhaps better some a requirment for approval by the Church. [/quote]
Yeah, I suspect being trained from birth probably helps. The Church would definitely get the ability to approve/disapprove, and the future King would have to demonstrate his fidelity.

Spiffy.

Now, any other ideas? Or had Don John frightened you all off?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='philothea' date='May 4 2005, 07:36 PM'] Yeah, I suspect being trained from birth probably helps.  The Church would definitely get the ability to approve/disapprove, and the future King would have to demonstrate his fidelity.

Spiffy.

Now, any other ideas?  Or had Don John frightened you all off?   [/quote]
Well I to tend to frighten people off, being right all the time tends to make people fear you.

Edited May 5, 2005 by Don John of Austria

[Nathan]

OK, OK.

Hans Kung 4 President...?

[son_of_angels]

In order to have a truly Catholic nation, I envision one in which the nation is ruled by a King or Consul, who oversees the national government on a limited scale. He would be elected, or at least approved (if hereditary), by a Council, made up of representatives from each diocese representing three classes, the Bishops, priests, and laymen, and would have to be received and crowned by the Patriarch in the national capital, who would of course, be subject to the pope. The Council would have most of the political/legislative power in governing the local governments and imposing laws localities. However the King would have the prerogative in conducting the national government, e.g., the appropriation of federal revenue, the conduct and laws of the national government, the agenda of the Council, the governance of national territories, the command of the national Army (however, in order to effectively do this he would have to get a Conscription from the council, the funds to do so, unless they were already provided, and a declaration of war from the council).
In the council, a majority from at least two of the classes, one of them being the Bishops, would be required to pass any legislation.
Let's see and the King could be removed by Synod of Bishops or the Pope himself and/or a 2/3 majority of each of the classes in the Council

Well that is my outline, which represents some basic Catholic principles of government.
1.) Submission to the spiritual authority (Unam Sanctam, Boniface VIII)
2.) Participation by the people.
3.) Defense of the religious nature of a society.


A final principle I would suggest is the need for personal government, that is, where each member of a government functions as a unique moral individual free of obligation to any particular political faction. The representative of the priestly order, for example, would be put there because he was a good and effective priest, who was looking after the interests of the local church and religious orders, likewise with the bishops. In order to do this a government should not overlook the natural hierarchy with which each class is embued. The popular class, for example, is by nature a social/political one wherein election is a decent way of determining rank. Thus the representative of the laity should probably be elected. Priests are by nature collegial and therefore a system whereby priests who have received the confidence of the leaders of local presbyteral councils should be elevated to the council. The representative of the Bishop should probably be or be sent by the most influential, senior, and highest ranking bishop therein, and not elected, as this could undermine the nature of the episcopate.

[philothea]

[quote name='Nathan' date='May 4 2005, 07:41 PM'] OK, OK.

Hans Kung 4 President...? [/quote]
Don't make me press that !REPORT button! :hammer:

Edited May 5, 2005 by philothea

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='May 4 2005, 07:41 PM'] In order to have a truly Catholic nation, I envision one in which the nation is ruled by a King or Consul, who oversees the national government on a limited scale. He would be elected, or at least approved (if hereditary), by a Council, made up of representatives from each diocese representing three classes, the Bishops, priests, and laymen, and would have to be received and crowned by the Patriarch in the national capital, who would of course, be subject to the pope. The Council would have most of the political/legislative power in governing the local governments and imposing laws localities. However the King would have the prerogative in conducting the national government, e.g., the appropriation of federal revenue, the conduct and laws of the national government, the agenda of the Council, the governance of national territories, the command of the national Army (however, in order to effectively do this he would have to get a Conscription from the council, the funds to do so, unless they were already provided, and a declaration of war from the council).
In the council, a majority from at least two of the classes, one of them being the Bishops, would be required to pass any legislation.
Let's see and the King could be removed by Synod of Bishops or the Pope himself and/or a 2/3 majority of each of the classes in the Council

Well that is my outline, which represents some basic Catholic principles of government.
1.) Submission to the spiritual authority (Unam Sanctam, Boniface VIII)
2.) Participation by the people.
3.) Defense of the religious nature of a society.


A final principle I would suggest is the need for personal government, that is, where each member of a government functions as a unique moral individual free of obligation to any particular political faction. The representative of the priestly order, for example, would be put there because he was a good and effective priest, who was looking after the interests of the local church and religious orders, likewise with the bishops. In order to do this a government should not overlook the natural hierarchy with which each class is embued. The popular class, for example, is by nature a social/political one wherein election is a decent way of determining rank. Thus the representative of the laity should probably be elected. Priests are by nature collegial and therefore a system whereby priests who have received the confidence of the leaders of local presbyteral councils should be elevated to the council. The representative of the Bishop should probably be or be sent by the most influential, senior, and highest ranking bishop therein, and not elected, as this could undermine the nature of the episcopate. [/quote]
I am hesetent about any form of council which has direct Authority over the King, This is particularly true with regards to taxes, people never want Taxes to be increased even when they need to be, the Estates General was called by Louis XVI because he was constrained by this very thing and it cost him his head, his wife her head his children their heads, and it cost the Church a nation. And the Bishops sat in that Council. There should be some formal and Authoritive means of Protest which would be outside of the Kings powers to stop, such as a Council of Nobles ( which of course would include the Bishops) which could be called by the Primate or by any of the vassals in Chief ( those that are direct vassals of the King instead of another Lord) but this should only be a reactive Council not an active one, Bishops and Priest need to be in there diocese, and nobles need to be administering their districts.

I completly agree with you about individual moral persons Parties are bad news.

[Don John of Austria]

Elections among the laity are a really bad Idea, people always gravitate to those who will look out for their interest not the nations.