Mary

[MichaelFilo]

I am no Marian apologist. As a matter of fact, I am very poor at it. However, I have noticed a new trend. A rather awkward trend, in fact. Apologists of today tend to water down Mary. They wash Her down so the protestant may believe. How sad, how terribly sad. When did we stop worshipping Mary and simply adore Her. What difference does it make if the heretic doesn't understand the Truth, he doesn't search for it with an open heart, but likes his lies. But, to not go on an endless rant, I'll make a few points.

Mary is second only to God. She brings us the closest to God, and God chose her for a special role in His life on Earth and His Church and our Salvation. He has set up the Woman to be honored above all women. As Catholics, we worship Her. Yes, worship Her. Of course we adore Her, and praise Her, and sing of the glory of Her name, but we also worship Her. When a protestant asks "Why do you worship Mary, (watch out, blasphemy ahead) she isn't holy, there isn't anything special about her?" why do apologists feel the need to say, we don't worship Her, we adore Her? Is it really a matter of terminology? Would it be so hard to explain how we worship the Blessed Virgin? No, we water Her down to not worthy of worship. Would it not be awful if a protestant were to think we don't worship Her? Oh, it is a sad thing to hear when I hear a Catholic say "we don't worship Mary" because truely then, the heretic has wont he day by changing us to not give due glory to the Mother of the Church. We owe much to Her, we should therefore respond with more certainty. A person who converts believing we don't worship Mary has been lied to, and that person who told them thus is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Mary is mediatrix of all graces. The common defense for this has been "well through Mary Jesus was born and so through her comes the Grace of God". However, as Catholics, that is not how we understand it. Mary dispenses all Graces from God. She gives them to the protestant as to the Catholic. God has many Graces, and it is Mary's role to hand them out as She sees fit. That is how we understand it, so why water it down?

I'm going to bed now, but these things bother me quite a bit. Actually, more than that...

God bless,
Mikey

Edited May 5, 2005 by MichaelFilo

[corban711]

I agree that it is an absolute tragedy when people water down our beliefs in Mary and the teachings of the Church about her!!! Mary has been the greatest aid to my sanctity! My life has been different since my consecration to Mary. She has done so much for me! And I am not afraid to say that she has done much for me, because of the teachings of the saints and popes for centuries. If it is true (and it is) that all graces come to us through her, then all good things have been given to me from her! Should I not want to praise and thank God for the gift she is! She has handed me everything! She has given me graces to draw me to the Eucharist, to love the sacraments, to read spiritual books and Sacred Scripture. Before I came to know her, she was gently guiding me, keeping me from falling too far, so that she could bring me to her Son! I wish the Catholic apologists would speak about her much more in the way of saints like St. Louis de Montfort and St. Maximilian Kolbe! Completely unafraid to speak of the glory that Mary is! I don't think apologists should be afraid to talk about her as the mediatrix of all graces either. It is quite simply, the teachings of the saints and popes for a very long time. I am always very saddened when I hear someone try to water down our beliefs about her because she is so important to me personally. I take offense when someone insults my Mama!

The only thing about saying we "worship" Mary...it is difficult to say because of what people mean by that word. If you read older Catholic books, some may say we worship Mary, but they are using an older, more restricted definition of that word. I don't think it is just a matter of terminology, but defining the meaning of such words is of great importance if we wish to be precise. Because it can be said that we "worship" Mary if it is understood properly, but it is true that we don't "worship" Mary in the same way we worship God. And it is VERY important that Catholic apologists point that fact out to avoid confusion about the teaching of the Church. There is one God and Mary is not Him. So we do honor her, love her, praise her for all that she has given us, but we do not worship her as we do the Most Blessed Trinity.

[guardsman]

We don't worship Mary. We worship God alone. There's only one God so that means no room to worship anybody or anything else. To do so would be idolatry. The Church teaches the difference between verneration and worship. Using the word worship, as it is understood in modern usage, is wrong when applied to the Blessed Virgin.

[MichaelFilo]

However, does adore convey fully what honors we give to Mary? I think it falls short. You see, Mary is worshipped, like the Saints are worshipped. Even in the new context of the word, it still applies. Simply we must remember that the worship of God is the greatest worship. However, any praise, honor, worship, etc. directed towards Mary "magnifies the glory of the Lord". Adore simply cannot convey the honor we give to Mary that worship does. Because every honor bestowed upon Mary, every praise, everything given to Her is given to Her Son. Thats why adoration cannot convey how much we love Her, because to not give praise to Her that She is worthy of (that is worship) we deny God praise to His name.

God bless,
Mikey

[CanCath]

This is what the Catechism says....

[quote]"All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's [b]DEVOTION[/b] to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special [b]DEVOTION[/b]. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.... This very special [b]DEVOTION[/b]... differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this [b]DEVOTION[/b] to the Virgin Mary. (CCC471)[/quote]


I believe we can deduce from this quote that the proper word to use is DEVOTION. It is certainly NOT "worship". It says that DEVOTION to Mary is an essential part of Christian worship, but it certainly does not imply that we worship her. In fact, according to the CCC we don't even adore her. We adore only the Trinity. However, a devotion is necessary in order to fully worship and adore God, because in devoting ourselves to such a perfect creature we are worshiping and adoring God.

I think it is very dangerous to use Adore, Worship, and Devotion interchangeably. They mean very different things, and as perfect and loving and beautiful our Blessed Mother is, she is simply not deserving of our Worship.

[Briguy]

Below is a cross section of "worship" verses. I would be careful of how you use the word in relation to Mary. It seems to me that you want to draw a more distinct line between Catholic Christian belief and other Christian belief. I like the words to the Steve Green song that says: "If in Christ we agree let us seek unity". Just my small, non Catholic person, input.

In Christ,

Brian

EX 34 14] For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Dt. 11 [16] Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;

1 kings 11 [33] Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father.

1 chron 29 29] Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come before him: worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness

pss 81 [9] There shall no strange god be in thee; neither shalt thou worship any strange god.

1. Jer. 22 [9] Then they shall answer, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD their God, and worshipped other gods, and served them.

1. Jerm 26 [6] And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.

Matt 4 [10] Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

John 4 [23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Rev. 7 11] And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Rev. 19 [10] And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 22 8] And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. [9] Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

[MichaelFilo]

[quote]And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?” (Josh. 5:14, KJV)[/quote]

Was Joshua worshiping the angel with the adoration due only to God? No. He still worshipped the angel. That is what I mean.

However, I will drop this case for two simple reasons:

1) My love for Mary and the lack of Marian devotion I see has caused me to ask such a question. The intent was not to take God's place, but instead was on my part a hope that more honor due to Mary maybe bestowed upon her.

2) Reading the writings of Saint Maxamilian Kolbe has spurred very much prayer in me, most notably the rosary. This is why the question is posed, because so many do not pray it any longer.

It should also be noted, beacuse I am more interested in the ancient, often times the way I use words is just that, arciach(sp?). However, for the sake of this thread, what I refer to is not the worship due only to God. Again, if you consider the word worship to mean only the worship due to God, then Joshua is an idolater.

God bless,
Mikey

[cmotherofpirl]

To use the term worship in reference to anyone other than God is wrong and confusing to just about anybody.

God recieves latria [worship].
Saints recieve dulia [veneration].
Mary recieves hyperdulia [greatest veneration] because she is the Mother of God.

[Cam42]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 4 2005, 10:09 PM'] I am no Marian apologist. As a matter of fact, I am very poor at it. However, I have noticed a new trend. A rather awkward trend, in fact. Apologists of today tend to water down Mary. They wash Her down so the protestant may believe. How sad, how terribly sad. When did we stop worshipping Mary and simply adore Her. What difference does it make if the heretic doesn't understand the Truth, he doesn't search for it with an open heart, but likes his lies. But, to not go on an endless rant, I'll make a few points.

        Mary is second only to God. She brings us the closest to God, and God chose her for a special role in His life on Earth and His Church and our Salvation. He has set up the Woman to be honored above all women. As Catholics, we worship Her. Yes, worship Her. Of course we adore Her, and praise Her, and sing of the glory of Her name, but we also worship Her. When a protestant asks "Why do you worship Mary, (watch out, blasphemy ahead) she isn't holy, there isn't anything special about her?" why do apologists feel the need to say, we don't worship Her, we adore Her? Is it really a matter of terminology? Would it be so hard to explain how we worship the Blessed Virgin? No, we water Her down to not worthy of worship. Would it not be awful if a protestant were to think we don't worship Her? Oh, it is a sad thing to hear when I hear a Catholic say "we don't worship Mary" because truely then, the heretic has wont he day by changing us to not give due glory to the Mother of the Church. We owe much to Her, we should therefore respond with more certainty. A person who converts believing we don't worship Mary has been lied to, and that person who told them thus is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

      Mary is mediatrix of all graces. The common defense for this has been "well through Mary Jesus was born and so through her comes the Grace of God". However, as Catholics, that is not how we understand it. Mary dispenses all Graces from God. She gives them to the protestant as to the Catholic. God has many Graces, and it is Mary's role to hand them out as She sees fit. That is how we understand it, so why water it down?

          I'm going to bed now, but these things bother me quite a bit. Actually, more than that...

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
Some apologists do water down Mary, but that is because they don't understand her. They misunderstand her role and her life's work.

I also understand what you mean about worship and adoration, but I think that you mean the same thing, Mikey.

The older understanding of worship wasn't meant to be the same thing as the misunderstanding of today.

The terms are synonomous. If we look at the definition of
[url="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=worship"]worship[/url] and [url="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=adoration"]adoration[/url] it is clear.

So, I don't think that your thoughts are out of line, however, I think that being cautious isn't necessarily incorrect either.

I happen to agree with you about Mediatrix. I have said it before, and I will continue to say it. I believe in the context. It isn't anything new and it isn't anything that we cannot justify. We can and should.

What is the role of a mother to her child? What is the role of advocate to her king? It isn't really all that different. I think that if we look at what God intended through Scripture (especially Luke and John)....as well as Tradition (2000 years of teaching), we do understand what is going on.

Look to Mary, she will give you the answer. You are also correct about the heretics. Although we should still teach them, evangelize them, and catechize them.

Don't water down anything Mikey, not one word. Mary deserves our love and our adoration.

Cam

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 5 2005, 10:07 AM']
Was Joshua worshiping the angel with the adoration due only to God? No. He still worshipped the angel. That is what I mean.

However, I will drop this case for two simple reasons:

1) My love for Mary and the lack of Marian devotion I see has caused me to ask such a question. The intent was not to take God's place, but instead was on my part a hope that more honor due to Mary maybe bestowed upon her.

2) Reading the writings of Saint Maxamilian Kolbe has spurred very much prayer in me, most notably the rosary. This is why the question is posed, because so many do not pray it any longer.

It should also be noted, beacuse I am more interested in the ancient, often times the way I use words is just that, arciach(sp?). However, for the sake of this thread, what I refer to is not the worship due only to God. Again, if you consider the word worship to mean only the worship due to God, then Joshua is an idolater.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
Joshua in Joshua 5:13 -15 was standing before God, so naturally he worshipped Him. The term is correct there.

[Paphnutius]

I am sure we have all heard and used these terms but it seems like someone needed to say them: latria, hyperdulia.

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 5 2005, 10:02 AM'] Joshua in Joshua 5:13 -15 was standing before God, so naturally he worshipped Him. The term is correct there. [/quote]
While not intending to continue this whole thread, as I have said my peace, I should note on this comment. The reference is to an angel of the Lord, not the Lord. Lets put it in some context here :

[quote]    13 Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, "Are you for us or for our enemies?"
    14 "Neither," he replied, "[b]but as commander of the army of the LORD [/b]I have now come." Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, "What message does my Lord [a] have for his servant?" -NIV
[/quote]

[quote]  13And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

  14And he said, Nay; [b]but as captain of the host of the LORD[/b] am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant? -KJV [/quote]

[quote]13.  And when Josue was in the field of the city of Jericho, he lifted up his eyes, and saw a man standing over against him: holding a drawn sword, and he went to him, and said: Art thou one of ours, or of our adversaries? 
14.  And he answered: No: [b]but I am prince of the host of the Lord[/b], and now I am come.  -Douay-Rheims
[/quote]

The angel was worshipped.

God bless,
Mikey

[Briguy]

If read carefully Joshua is worshipping the LORD because of the angel being there, he is not worshipping the angel.

-Brian

[MichaelFilo]

Actually, I have to disagree. The word Lord is rendered as both "Lord" (reference to God) and "lord" (reference to the angel). The NIV even makes this distinction. The fact is, either one would still point to the angel. Why? Because " Joshua fell prostate to the ground in worship, and said to him, "What has my lord to say to his servent." "

Now notice, Joshua fell to the ground at the sight of the angel. And then he said (to the angel) "What has my lord to say to his servent". He would be a rather awkward man if here to see an angel, fall to the ground worshipping God and turn to the angel and say, "What has my lord to say to his servent?". Even more awkward would it be if one were to suppose he asked this of God while the angel was there, because then the angel replies. Aside from that, the question is clearly directed to the angel, since the passage goes
[quote]Then Joshua fell prostate to the ground in worship, [b]and said to him[/b], "What has my lord to say to his servant?"[/quote]

He fell prostate and said to the angel who just talked to him. I don't see how you can see that he was worshipping anyone but that angel. This whole thing makes just as much sense from the NIV point of view, since there is a note about it. However, whether the word is in reference to God or the angel, the words are directed towards the angel. The prostaration would also be thus.

God bless,
Mikey

[cmotherofpirl]

It wasn't an angel it was the Lord.

Edited May 5, 2005 by cmotherofpirl

[MichaelFilo]

[quote]"Neither," he replied, "[b]but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come[/b]." Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, "What message does my Lord [a] have for his servant?" -NIV[/quote]

[quote]And he said, Nay; [b]but as captain of the host of the LORD[/b] am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant? -KJV[/quote]

[quote]And he answered: No: but [b]I am prince of the host of the Lord[/b], and now I am come. -Douay-Rheims[/quote]

This was not God. If the first two don't convince you, then the third should. A commander, a captain, and a prince of the angels. However, knowing you, I will go a bit further.

[quote]Seraphim
These are the highest order or choir of angels. They are the angels who are attendants or guardians before God's throne. They praise God, calling, "Holy Holy Holy is the Lord of Hosts". the only Bible reference is Isaiah 6:1-7. One of them touched Isaiah's lips with a live coal from the altar, cleansing him from sin. Seraphim have six wings, two cover their faces, two cover their feet, and two are for flying.

Cherubim
Cherubim rank after the seraphim and are the second highest in the nine hierarchies or choirs of angels. The Old Testament does not reveal any evidence that the Jews considered them as intercessors or helpers of God. They were closely linked in God's glory. They are manlike in appearance and double-winged and were guardians of God's glory. They symbolized then, God's power and mobility. In the New Testament, they are alluded to as celestial attendants in the Apocalypse (Rv 4-6). Catholic tradition describes them as angels who have an intimate knowledge of God and continually praise Him.

Thrones
Thrones are the Angels of pure Humility, Peace and Submisssion. They reside in the area of the cosmos where material form begins to take shape. The lower Choir of Angels need the Thrones to access God.

Dominions
Dominions are Angels of Leadership. They regulate the duties of the angels, making known the commands of God.

Virtues
Virtues are known as the Spirits of Motion and control the elements. They are sometimes referred to as "the shining ones." They govern all nature. They have control over seasons, stars, moon; even the sun is subject to their command. They are also in charge of miracles and provide courage, grace, and valor.

Powers
Powers are Warrior Angels against evil defending the cosmos and humans. They are known as potentates. They fight against evil spirits who attempt to wreak chaos through human beings. The chief is said to be either Samael or Camael, both angels of darkness.

Archangels
Archangels are generally taken to mean "chief or leading angel" ( Jude 9; 1 Thes 4:16), they are the most frequently mentioned throughout the Bible. They may be of this or other hierarchies as St. Michael Archangel, who is a princely Seraph. The Archangels have a unique role as God's messenger to the people at critical times in history and salvation (Tb 12:6, 15; Jn 5:4; Rv 12:7-9) as in The Annunciation and Apocalypse. A feast day celebrating the Archangels Michael, Gabriel and Raphael is celebrated throughout the Church Sep 29. A special part of the Byzantine Liturgy invokes the "Cherubic Hymn" which celebrates these archangels and the guardian angels particularly. Of special significance is St. Michael as he has been invoked as patron and protector by the Church from the time of the Apostles. The Eastern Rite and many others place him over all the angels, as Prince of the Seraphim. He is described as the "chief of princes" and as the leader of the forces of heaven in their triumph over Satan and his followers. The angel Gabriel first appeared in the Old Testament in the prophesies of Daniel, he announced the prophecy of 70 weeks (Dn 9:21-27). He appeared to Zechariah to announce the birth of St. John the Baptist (Lk 1:11). It was also Gabriel which proclaimed the Annunciation of Mary to be the mother of our Lord and Saviour. (Lk 1:26) The angel Raphael first appeared in the book of Tobit (Tobias)Tb 3:25, 5:5-28, 6-12). He announces "I am the Angel Raphael, one of the seven who stand before the throne of God." (Tb 12:15)

Principalities
In the New Testament Principalities refers to one type of spiritual (metaphysical) being which are now quite hostile to God and human beings. (Rom 8:38; 1 Cor 15:24; Eph 1:21; 3:10; 6:12; Col 1:16; 2:10, 15) Along with the principalities are the powers (Rom 8:38; 1 Cor 15:24; Eph 1:21; 1 Pt 3:22; 2 Thes 1:7); and cosmological powers (1 Cor 15:24; Eph 1:21; 3:10; Col 2:15);Dominions (Eph 1:21; Col 1:16) and thrones (Col 1:16). The clarity of the New Testament witness helps see that these beings were created through Christ and for Him (Col 1:16). Given their hostility to God and humans due to sin, Christ's ultimate rule over them (ibid) expresses the reign of the Lord over all in the cosmos. This is the Lordship of Christ, which reveals God's tremendous salvation in conquering sin and death at the cross, and now takes place in the Church. (Eph 3:10)

Angels
These angels are closest to the material world and human begins. They deliver the prayers to God and God's answers and other messages to humans. Angels have the capacity to access any and all other Angels at any time. They are the most caring and socius to assist those who ask for help.
[/quote]

[url="http://www.catholic.org/saints/anglchoi.php"]Catholic online[/url]

The angel was most likely a Dominion.

God bless,
Mikey

[guardsman]

Catholics do not worship Mary. I've been accused of this many times and never understood why. But after reading some of these posts, I'm starting to understand why people think that. Perhaps SOME Catholics worship Mary. This Catholic has reserved the word "worship" for God, alone. I suggest we ALL do. It is not correct to say that in the year 2005. We know the difference between worship and veneration.

[MichaelFilo]

[quote]Devotion to Our Blessed Lady in its ultimate analysis must be regarded as a practical application of the doctrine of the Communion of Saints. Seeing that this doctrine is not contained, at least explicitly in the earlier forms of the Apostles' Creed, there is perhaps no ground for surprise if we do not meet with any clear traces of the cultus of the Blessed Virgin in the first Christian centuries. The earliest unmistakable examples of the "worship" -- we use the word of course in the relative sense -- of the saints is connected with the veneration paid to the martyrs who gave their lives for the Faith[/quote]

First lines for this article from [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15459a.htm"]New Advent[/url] about Mary.

St. Alphonsus Liguori is also one of the reasons. There should be a distinction made in the different meanings of the word. Again, my language is archiac.

Edit: We do worship Mary in the sense that Joshua worshipped that angel. For all your KJV friends, you can use that to point out the difference in word usage. By the way, the word changed only because of the Protestant heresy.

God bless,
Mikey

Edited May 5, 2005 by MichaelFilo

[guardsman]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 5 2005, 06:48 PM'] By the way, the word changed only because of the Protestant heresy.[/quote]
This statement is very true, but the fact of the matter is, the meaning of the word has changed. We, as Catholics who understand the difference, need to use proper terminology. Protestants who read this may misunderstand and believe we worship Mary in place of God. We should not use the word worship when talking about veneration of Mary. It is no longer correct. This has nothing to do with watering down Mary, and everything to do with how the American English language has changed.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 5 2005, 08:18 PM']




This was not God. If the first two don't convince you, then the third should. A commander, a captain, and a prince of the angels. However, knowing you, I will go a bit further.



[url="http://www.catholic.org/saints/anglchoi.php"]Catholic online[/url]

The angel was most likely a Dominion.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
My Navarre Catholic bible footnotes says it was the Lord. I'll stick with it.