Mary

[CanCath]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 6 2005, 12:00 AM'] I think you are not hearing something here. I am not trying to worship Mary in the sense you understand. In fact, I recanted because I instead was arguing for the correct usage of the word as opposed to the modernized usage of the word, not the honor due to Mary. Falling prostrate is a form of worship in the old sense of the word. No one wants to worship Her like God. That wouldn't make sense. In fact, it would be a contradiction, because She is as great as God makes Her.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
Correct usage of the word???? Give me a break!

I believe that you need to realize that today's CORRECT usage of the word WORSHIP is different then what it was before... Now, I know you like using archaic language, you've said it about 10 times, but the reality is, if you want to be an apologetic and/or evangelizer, you are going to have to start using the words of today. And today, Worship cannot be used in the same way as it was before...

Honestly, if someone came to me TODAY and asked "Do Catholics worship Mary?". I would have to say NO. Not because I don't understand the true meaning of the word, or how it was used many years ago, but simply because I know that that person meant Worship in the way we worship God.

This is most definitely NOT watering down the importance and love the Church gives to the Most Holy Mother of God. It is simply properly explaining it.



Also, about the scriptures you have quoted.... Is it not possible to prostrate and worship God in the presence of the angel?? Like, in my understanding it true that the angel is present, but couldn't Joshua have simply been praising God in front of the angel? Prostrating himslef because of the emense presence of God?

[MichaelFilo]

Ok... follow your logic. The angel answer's Joshua's question and says who he is. Then Joshua falls to his knees before God. Then he talks to God while the angel stands by him. Then the angel talks. That makes sense. We do it all the time... right? Wrong. My point is, just look up the verse and it still uses that version of the word. But the point is, I will refrain from using the word worship to confuse people.

God bless,
Mikey

[cmotherofpirl]

There is no angel, Joshua is falling before the LORD GOD!

Edited May 6, 2005 by cmotherofpirl

[MichaelFilo]

Ok Cmom. The "commander of the hosts of the Lord" is the Lord. That is sound logic. Actually, no it isn't. Cmom, restating something over and over doesn't make you right. You are more senior to the debate table, you know well enough saying the same thing over and over is really denial.

God bless,
Mikey

[cmotherofpirl]

Michael, I am not debating , I am quoting my Catholic Bible.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Actually, Cmom is very correct... the "angel" Joshua falls prostrate before is the Lord-- if you bring up that very passage with almost any well-read protestant that's the first thing they'll say.

Lastly, to add in my own two cents.. Historically, the word "worship" was merely a generic term for "devotion"... it didn't hold the exclusivity that it does today. Historically worship of adoration was distinguished from worship of veneration. St. Thomas Aquinas developed the distinction between "latria" and "dulia". With latria referring to the manifestation of submission & dependence shown towards the excellence of an uncreated person (i.e., adoration... of God). And dulia referring to the manifestation of reverence towards the excellence of a created person (i.e., veneration of Mary & the Saints in Heaven). Why dulia? Because excellence also deserves acknowledgement--we give gold medals at the olympics, awards for academic achievements, etc., and don't see this as violating any Commandments. We adore God in latria, and venerate the saints in dulia. That is the critical distinction.

However, today, the word "worship" tends to be somewhat exclusive and thus is a turn off to most protestants... if you're going to use it, you have to define what you mean by it to show that we, as Catholics, can and do distinguish between what is unique of God and secondary and subordinate (i.e., through God) in Mary and the Saints.

[journeyman]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 6 2005, 08:27 AM'] Ok... follow your logic. The angel answer's Joshua's question and says who he is. Then Joshua falls to his knees before God. Then he talks to God while the angel stands by him. Then the angel talks. That makes sense. We do it all the time... right? Wrong. My point is, just look up the verse and it still uses that version of the word. But the point is, I will refrain from using the word worship to confuse people.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
verse 13 - saw one who stood facing them - sword drawn - Joshua asks are you one of us or of our enemies

(this is not the only passage in the Bible where holiness/divinity/angelic is not recognized at first sight)

verse 14 - answer - neither - I am the captain of the host of the Lord

(throughout history, into the present day, the governmental leader is the commander in chief - it was as true of kings and emperors as it is of the president of the United States)

(the generals are also captains of the host - so I'm not saying you're not right - and this is in fact an angel - I'm noting that the language is not ultimately dispositive) . . . (and the fact that the captain of the host of the LORD is capitalized and Joshua's response "what has my lord to say to his servant" (lower case) does support the idea that this is not the LORD) (and footnote 4 says this section recounts (1) The command of the Lord, through his angel, to Joshua)(as a PFC, I'm going to salute both the general and the commander in chief)

verse 15 - Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy -

(the only other incident I could find like this - very short search - was Exodus - Moses and the burning bush - is there any question that the LORD was present in the bush? are there any other angelic appearances which sanctified the ground in their presence?)
(while it isn't explicitly stated, is it unreasonable to presume that once the angel is identified Joshua's vision clears and he senses the actual presence of the Lord, and prostrates himself in worship (proper both under the archaic and the modern use of the term?)

chapter 6, verse 2 - and to Joshua the LORD said

(admittedly, the Old Testament is not a strict chronological account, but we have the instruction to remove shoes/sandals because this is holy ground in 5:15, the last verse in that chapter (chapters and verses weren't numbered, so there is really no break here in the original scroll?) and in 6:2, the LORD said)

(the idea that there was an angel serving as a herald of the LORD, making sure Joshue was properly set up for the discussion of strategy, is not unreasonable.)

but that does not lead inevitably to a conclusion that Joshua fell in worship of the angel - it is equally plausible that he fell in worship of the LORD

and you're absolutely correct, I have no personal experience talking to angels or the LORD, so I can't say it happens this way all the time, or any of the time . . . I'm limited to applying the words and text as they have been handed down to me . . . and this passage running from the end of one chapter into the next seems to be recounting a single incident, not two separate incidents