Trinity

[daugher-of-Mary]

From a evangelical Christian:

[quote]The disciples thought Jesus was talking about munching on Jesus while he was still in the flesh! But Jesus explains in that passage, "The Spirit gives life." Since you don't know this, the Holy spirit is Christ Jesus living inside us in the form of the Holy Spirit. And that is what Jesus meant by this passage! Again, he said; "I" am the bread of life." What part of that do you not understand? 2 Co 13:5, "Do you not know that you have Christ Jesus living in you?" [/quote]

Can you say that Christ takes the form of the Holy Spirit? or is that blurring the distinction between the three Persons who are one God? "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Kind of a picky.. and sticky, situation...

Insofar as Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God, then yes... however, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons--the only distinguishing factor between them is their relationship to one another.. i.e., sonship, fathership, and "spirated love".

I don't really know how I'd want to answer your question... or debate with Heidi.. LOL.

[Paphnutius]

It sounds like that is modalism. The Father, Son, and Spirit are three distinct persons, but are only those persons in relation to one another. The Father is only a Father because there is a Son, and vice versa.

[MilesChristi]

[quote]The disciples thought Jesus was talking about munching on Jesus while he was still in the flesh[/quote]

Yes, Christ's disciples found this a very hard saying to accept. In fact, this teaching caused great numbers of them to leave Jesus and go back to their former ways of life, no longer walking with Him. Keeping in mind that Jesus did not want to lose any of the sheep that His Father had given to Him, does your friend really think that Christ would have just let all these people go over a mere misunderstanding? Wouldn't He have halted them and perhaps rebuked them for their lack of understanding? Or perhaps He might have later explained to the Twelve what He really meant, like He did with the parable of the sower?

Well, Christ didn't do either of those things because He meant what He said. The disciples didn't leave from misunderstanding; they left because they just wouldn't accept something so incredible.

Ask your friend what she thinks Jesus meant when He said that His flesh is [b]true[/b] food and His blood is [b]true[/b] drink.

[quote]The Holy spirit is Christ Jesus living inside us in the form of the Holy Spirit[/quote]

What she says here doesn't make any sense to me. I'd particularly like to know what she means by "in the form of the Holy Spirit."

The Father is God.
Jesus Christ is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.

The Father is not Jesus.
Jesus is not the Father.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

Edited May 6, 2005 by MilesChristi

[daugher-of-Mary]

Yeah, it really is a messy situation. *sigh* I kind of hate to open up a can of worms with a debate about the Trinity (since it is a Mystery!) but she keeps on coming back to this...

MilesChristi,
I've said all that, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in -_-

[franciscanheart]

i read this book that a friend gave to me called "beginning apologetics" and it was really helpful on explaining the trinity. i can not do it really but i mean i understood a lot more profoundly the trinity in as much as my little mind can handle. i would recommend finding a copy and reading it and trying to explain from there.

[phatcatholic]

i wouldn't make this about the trinity b/c that's not what its really about. its about what Jesus meant when he said, "the spirit gives life." he wasn't speaking of the trinity or even himself. if we allow Jesus to finish his sentence here, we see what he was really talking about: "the spirit gives life, the flesh is of no avail. the words that i say to you are spirit and life." now, what did he mean when he said this? here is a portion of a tract i wrote ([url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=28635"][b]here[/b][/url]) on the real presence:[list]in response to this they walk away, including [i][b]many[/b][/i] of his very beloved disciples. [i][b]but even now, even when he has lost his most faithful followers, he does not back down[/b][/i]. he turns to the faithful remnant, who acknowledge that His is a hard saying (vs. 60), and says to them, "Doth this offend you?" (vs. 61). "Will ye also go away?" (vs. 67). he does not intend to retract his statement or to explain it away. instead, he explains [i]to them[/i] why they don't believe:

[b]61 [/b]When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
[b]62 [/b]What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
[b]63 [/b]It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
[b]64 [/b]But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

it is often asserted here that, by saying that his words are spirit and life that he is meaning to clarify that he was only speaking symbolically. i find no merit in this claim. for one, nowhere in the bible is the word "spirit" meant to mean "symbol" and nowhere else is something said to be symbolic b/c it is spiritual. instead, what we find here is a comparison between the spirit and the flesh that is often used throughout the bible to mean one thing: human wisdom vs. supernatural faith. both Jesus and Paul use this terminology often to point out that we must go beyond the natural to comprehend the supernatural (cf. [url="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=John+3%3A6§ion=0&version=kjv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=joh&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6"]John 3:6[/url]; [url="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Mark+14%3A38§ion=0&version=kjv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=joh&NavGo=3&NavCurrentChapter=3"]Mark 14:38[/url]; [url="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1+Cor+2%3A14%3B+3%3A3§ion=0&version=kjv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=mr&NavGo=14&NavCurrentChapter=14"]1 Cor 2:14; 3:3[/url]; [url="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Rom+8%3A5§ion=0&version=kjv&new=1&oq="]Rom 8:5[/url]; [url="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Gal+5%3A17§ion=0&version=kjv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ro&NavGo=8&NavCurrentChapter=8"]Gal 5:17[/url]).
[/list]i hope that helps

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[daugher-of-Mary]

thanks everybody!

I used the reference section and pulled every single reason why Christ couldn't be speaking symbolically, Jillian referenced the OT, etc., but this conversation keeps on coming back to that Catholics "limit" the power of the Holy Spirit by believing in the Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. -_- I don't know...keep this individual in your prayers.

[daugher-of-Mary]

Laura,
Do you know who is the author of the book you mentioned? Thanks!

[franciscanheart]

yeah i do... ill run and go look at it. hold on.

[franciscanheart]

its [i]Theology for Beginners[/i] by F.J. Sheed (Frank J. Sheed)

[Cure of Ars]

These links might help.


[url="http://www.katapi.org.uk/TandS/ShortContents.htm"]THEOLOGY & SANITY by F J Sheed[/url]

At the above link there is a chapter on the Trinity and 3 Persons in
1 Nature. It is on the left hand side of the page.

This link might also help.

[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/debate3.htm"]The Holy Trinity and "Oneness" Pentecostals[/url]

[Paphnutius]

Aquinas would be a good person to read about the trinity. The summa may be found on New Advent

[franciscanheart]

Thomas Aquinas would be a good person to read about like... anything!!


Thomas :wub: Aquinas

[phatcatholic]

and to think, he was called a "dumb ox"

[daugher-of-Mary]

Thank you!!!!

"I'd rather believe an ox could fly than believe a Domican could lie..." hehe.

[Jake Huether]

Also noteworthy is the fact that this happens right after Jesus feeds the multitudes. They come to Him thinking He will supply them with food that will sustain them physically. Jesus tells them, no, His REAL PHYSICAL BODY is REAL PHYSICAL FOOD, but it isn't to sustain them physically. His Body is "Food indeed", but for our [b]spirit[/b] - because our flesh is of no avail.

It has nothing to do with His Spirit or his flesh being of no avail. It likewise has nothing to do with symbolism. It's all literal. We must eat His Body and Drink His Blood if we are to have spiritual life.