The old "pharisee" argument...

[Ash Wednesday]

So do any of you folks, when sticking up for the magesterium of the Church, get accused by dissenters that you're a fundamentalist or a pharisee?




Is that just a common tactic, or what?

[Fidei Defensor]

No but i get looks as if I am something other than Christian..

[toledo_jesus]

yes, see the Corrupt Campus Minister thread.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='May 6 2005, 07:54 PM'] So do any of you folks, when sticking up for the magesterium of the Church, get accused by dissenters that you're a fundamentalist or a pharisee?




Is that just a common tactic, or what? [/quote]
Absolutely. Have you got the one that Jesus was love - love - love?

[Ash Wednesday]

"All you need is love...love....all you need is love..."

[Cam42]

Ooohhh....ooohhhh...Littleles called me one!!!!!

I am so proud!!!

[Norseman82]

And then you have the people who infer that because Jesus battled against scribes and pharisees, say "Jesus hated the religious establishment" or "Jesus hates religion" to justify attacking church authorities.

Chalk up another one for erroneous private interpretation.

[littleflower+JMJ]

what really ticks me off is when ppl throw out everything and say Jesus was against organized religion, hug and tree and get to heaven--i just dont get it.

ppl dont understand authority and obedience anymore because so many have never even heard of it

[socalscout]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='May 6 2005, 04:54 PM'] So do any of you folks, when sticking up for the magesterium of the Church, get accused by dissenters that you're a fundamentalist or a pharisee?




Is that just a common tactic, or what?  [/quote]
Yeah but it could have some merit in terms of how we approach our fellow Catholics who dissent.

I was part of the RCIA team and we got some pretty eye opening reviews calling us Pharisees. The students were correct because many well informed Lay Catholics can be arrogant and have a "holier than thou" attitude. It really shook us because we looked back and saw that we actually acted that way.

It can be a sign or a red flag as to how you treat others. I do not believe you are arrogant or anything like that but you might want to look within before you dismiss it. It worked for us and it was a hard pill to swallow because ultimately our goal is to reconcile our Brethren fully with the Magesterium of the Church and to put all egos aside.

I've seen many here act the same way without reproach.

Just my opinion which along with $3.75 will buy me a latte.

Edited May 7, 2005 by socalscout

[Ash Wednesday]

I see what you are saying and it certainly is something to think about. However, I view that kind of kneejerk "pharisee" accusation in many cases to be kind of a weak cop-out and equally self-righteous and judgmental to boot. I suppose I shouldn't be all that surprised...the person called the pope an intolerant homophobe who has no compassion.

*walks off into the sunset hugging trees with littleflower*

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='May 6 2005, 07:54 PM'] So do any of you folks, when sticking up for the magesterium of the Church, get accused by dissenters that you're a fundamentalist or a pharisee? [/quote]
In short, yes. It seems "legalistic" and "divisive" are other favorites of theirs.

[journeyman]

socalscout - good point about teaching role - I always liked teachers who could break down a teaching and get me to understand its parts - once I understood that, I could understand how the whole came together - it's a talent few teachers show all the time, but the ones who do are really effective. And they rarely get called "pharisee" "legalistic" or "divisive"

The more the teachings get out . . . the wider the pool of parishioners who have heard them . . . the better chance they'll get discussed . . . that's the perfect opportunity for those special teachers to explain . . . and when there's presentation, discussion and explanation, there's rarely name calling. There may not be full agreement, but there is understanding, and that is what allows diversity within the uniformity - that allows the whole Body of Christ to be a community . . . rather than a bunch of factions.

[Mickey's_Girl]

This is an interesting topic. I haven't gotten too far into this type of discussion with long-term Catholics, since I'm still pretty new and working on not having Arrogant Convert Syndrome (you know what I mean...). This is not to say I won't stand up for truth. But I try to listen first.

But I will say I've gotten more nonsense from Catholics than from non-Catholics.

I think it's VERY important to find the balance. Heterodox people can throw around words (pharisee, unchristian) that are totally meaningless, coming from them. On the other hand, when you are standing up for the truth, there's a temptation to be prideful. I think one must ask oneself: am I trying to change this person's mind/represent the Church's teaching accurately to others, or am I trying to prove myself right?

By the way, Ash: I know you're not a Pharisee!!!

MG

Edited: Journeyman and Socalscout--I agree!

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Mickey's_Girl' date='May 7 2005, 11:20 AM'] By the way, Ash:  I know you're not a Pharisee!!!
[/quote]
Well, I try not to be... but I fail sometimes with that.

Lately I've been angry at one of my best friends because she was a convert but became very heterodox (long story...oldtimer phatmassers might know about it) -- and in a way she developed resentment towards me. We worked it out, more or less. Though I still get mad, I have found taking it to prayer has done wonders and opened my eyes, and has dulled the agitation and anger.

One thing I realized was that I was almost using her as my little trophy convert, you know, in that if she's a good Catholic, it would make ME look good in the eyes of God, if you know what I mean. And I realized it was out of my hands, that there is only so much you can do for another, but a whole lot you can do to improve yourself.

And I did, and at times still do take her eventual rejections of the faith personally, I realize this is wrong also. It is God alone who draws people to the Church and fullness of truth in the end. I can't take credit when I sponsor a friend who joins the Church, and on the flip side I can't take it personally if they reject it. It is, in the end, a question of God's grace and how one responds to it.

[hopeful1]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='May 7 2005, 01:15 AM'] And then you have the people who infer that because Jesus battled against scribes and pharisees, say "Jesus hated the religious establishment" or "Jesus hates religion" to justify attacking church authorities.

Chalk up another one for erroneous private interpretation. [/quote]
don't forget "jesus never meant to establish a religion"

[Dave]

When dissenters accuse orthodox Catholics of acting like Pharisees, it's actually the dissenters who are acting like Pharisees. The Pharisees were very self-righteous, and that's how dissenters are -- they may do or condone any of the following sins: heresy, schism, contraception, abortion, homosexual activity, fornication, etc., but yet they manage to convince themselves that they're not guilty of any sin and that those who disagree with them are the bad guys.

[socalscout]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='May 7 2005, 03:13 AM'] I see what you are saying and it certainly is something to think about. However, I view that kind of kneejerk "pharisee" accusation in many cases to be kind of a weak cop-out and equally self-righteous and judgmental to boot. I suppose I shouldn't be all that surprised...the person called the pope an intolerant homophobe who has no compassion.

*walks off into the sunset hugging trees with littleflower* [/quote]
Ash I have been here long enough to know that you are a wonderful person. I know where you are coming from.

[socalscout]

I am finding that many dissenters dissent out of ignorance. They don't agree with the Church because the reasons for the Church's stance was never fully explained to them.

We have to understand that dissent and sin can be different. I am 100% loyal to the Church's teaching however I still commit sin that is contrary to that teaching. I am not a dissenter I am a sinner. To me there is a fine line between a dissenter and a sinner although one who truly knowingly dissents is a sinner.

Here is an example;

My mother made my blood boil when she dismissed some of the teachings of the Church and refered to them as fundelmentalist because she found no foundations for them in the Bible. I found it difficult to keep my composure while correcting her about Sacred tradition. She was surprised and I was upset that my mother, the cradle Catholic, had no clue about Church teachings. Is she a dissenter? I don't think so. Did she sin? I don't know. She thought it was perfectly ok to disagree and for good reason, no one told her otherwise.

I have never had in all of my CCD and Catholic Highschool and RCIA teachings had it drilled into my head the sinful act of disobedience to the Church until I came here. The Love of Christ and his sacrifice and the evilness of sin were taught extensively but never did I have a clue about how wrong it is to disobey. I never read a line of Canon until I came here.

Just my observations.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='socalscout' date='May 8 2005, 02:40 AM'] I am finding that many dissenters dissent out of ignorance. They don't agree with the Church because the reasons for the Church's stance was never fully explained to them.

We have to understand that dissent and sin can be different. I am 100% loyal to the Church's teaching however I still commit sin that is contrary to that teaching. I am not a dissenter I am a sinner. To me there is a fine line between a dissenter and a sinner although one who truly knowingly dissents is a sinner.

Here is an example;

My mother made my blood boil when she dismissed some of the teachings of the Church and refered to them as fundelmentalist because she found no foundations for them in the Bible. I found it difficult to keep my composure while correcting her about Sacred tradition. She was surprised and I was upset that my mother, the cradle Catholic, had no clue about Church teachings. Is she a dissenter? I don't think so. Did she sin? I don't know. She thought it was perfectly ok to disagree and for good reason, no one told her otherwise.

I have never had in all of my CCD and Catholic Highschool and RCIA teachings had it drilled into my head the sinful act of disobedience to the Church until I came here. The Love of Christ and his sacrifice and the evilness of sin were taught extensively but never did I have a clue about how wrong it is to disobey. I never read a line of Canon until I came here.

Just my observations. [/quote]
Your line is essentially the same as the line between a material heretic and a formal heretic.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='socalscout' date='May 8 2005, 01:11 AM'] Ash I have been here long enough to know that you are a wonderful person. I know where you are coming from. [/quote]
:group: