Revolutionary War

[ardillacid]

Since we were talking about just wars, I don't see how the Revolutionary War could have been justified. A half-cent tax? England never attacked us. They had more freedom under George III than we do now. Just war experts, please clarify.

[Curt F.]

It was a very unjustified war. The thing you have to remember, though, that the Americans (Colonists) wanted their independence for decades at that point and were just looking for an excuse to declare a revolution. You can't really look at the half-cent tax as the cause, rather, you should look at the will of the people behind the act.

[Guest Eremite]

I haven't studied the matter, so I can't give my own opinion. But I know Catholic historian Warren Carroll believes it is a misnomer to call the American Revolution a "revolution". In his opinion, it was not a chaotic revolt against all authority (as were the French and Communist revolutions), but against unjust authority. He believes it was a just war. It seems that the fact that the Americans were dealing with a foreign power, rather than a home power, would very much factor into the moral evaluation of the conflict.

[MichaelFilo]

The "Americans" were English. England put them there.... they came from England... there is very little excuse here. Foriegn domination can't be the case since the foriegn power created the colonies. Unlike in other places that would later fall under English power, the colonies were made by the English.

God bless,
Mikey

[Socrates]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 7 2005, 10:44 AM'] The "Americans" were English. England put them there.... they came from England... there is very little excuse here. Foriegn domination can't be the case since the foriegn power created the colonies. Unlike in other places that would later fall under English power, the colonies were made by the English.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
The Americans had been living in America, seperate from the English, for generations. They grew their own food, made their own goods, etc. , yet they were controlled by and had to pay taxes to the government of a land far across the ocean that wanted to tell them what to do without them having any say in it. And that their ancestors came from England is irrelevant. Many colonists came from other countries such as Germany, Ireland, and France. Were they to stay loyal to their respective ancestral homelands, or to obey the English?

Don't tread on me!!!

[Socrates]

[quote name='Eremite' date='May 7 2005, 09:51 AM'] I haven't studied the matter, so I can't give my own opinion. But I know Catholic historian Warren Carroll believes it is a misnomer to call the American Revolution a "revolution". In his opinion, it was not a chaotic revolt against all authority (as were the French and Communist revolutions), but against unjust authority. He believes it was a just war. It seems that the fact that the Americans were dealing with a foreign power, rather than a home power, would very much factor into the moral evaluation of the conflict. [/quote]
Dr. Carroll rules!

I took almost all of his classes back in college! Y'all should read his books!

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Eremite' date='May 7 2005, 09:51 AM']I haven't studied the matter, so I can't give my own opinion. But I know Catholic historian Warren Carroll believes it is a misnomer to call the American Revolution a "revolution". In his opinion, it was not a chaotic revolt against all authority (as were the French and Communist revolutions), but against unjust authority. He believes it was a just war. It seems that the fact that the Americans were dealing with a foreign power, rather than a home power, would very much factor into the moral evaluation of the conflict.[/quote]
How were the British unjust towrds us? look at us today, we pay the colonist's taxes hundreds of times over without even thinking about it. I would switch our taxes for a government that didn't interfere with every aspect of our lives that it can dream up. So they didn't have representatives. Big deal. Neither do our territories, do they?

Edited May 8, 2005 by ardillacid

[argent_paladin]

The British militarily occupied the city of Boston from 1768. They fired into a crowed of civilians, the Boston Massacre, in 1770. The British also moved to destroy Colonial munitions and ammunition at Lexington and Concord. The British considered the colonials second-class citizens, of lower rank and value. The Intolerable Acts of 1774 closed the port of Boston and imposed martial law on Massachusetts. The colonials believed that they were being enslaved.
Essentially, to justify the Revolutionary War, one must assume that the colonies had evolved into a separate nation, a nation occupied unjustly by England. This is not that much of a stretch since that is exactly how nations come into being. They slowly drift apart, gaining their own customs, ways of living, etc. Indeed, it is a historical irony that it was the benign neglect of the British for so long that allowed the Colonies to drift off onto their own.
And, if Puerto Rico, or the US Virgin Islands, or any other territory wanted independence, we would let them go. In fact, in the last 150 years, most territories have petitioned to become states, the most recent being Alaska and Hawaii.
And I do think that "revolution" is not very accurate. It was a war for independence, certainly but the revolution didn't occur until the Constitution was written. There was always a chance that King George III would have been replaced by King George Washington.
The independence was inevitable, by demographics and distance. At some point, they would have become a different nation, if it had not happened in 1776. One need only look at the examples of Australia and Canada.
So, if one assumes that America was a nation different from England, then it would have its own proper authority (the Continental Congress). The just cause would have been the oppression of the Americans by the British and the desire to maintain the territory and freedoms already held. It was last resort because the Continetals had tried diplomatic solutions before declaring war (remember that Bunker Hill occured a year before the Declaration of Independence was signed.
This all revolves around the opinion that the Continentals were distinct from the British. They were basically self-governed, had their own traditions and customs, their own economy, laws, etc. They were de facto a separate nation before 1776.

[ardillacid]

(I haven't mastered the quote machine so try to bear with me)

Why did they occupy Boston? Because the Bostonians (?) were unruly over light-as-feather taxes on non-essential items for living. (cards, stamps, etc.)

Boston Massacre: Civilians who pelted the soldiers with objects and egged them on were fired upon. hmm...I think if I threw rocks at a cop he just might shoot back. How about Waco, Texas...so much different?

It was the "benign neglect" of the colonies that the colonists should have held on tightly to. They had virtually no government interference in their lives.

As for being seperate from their homeland...the colonist economy was largely dependant on England's demand for their goods. They spoke the same language, had pretty much the same religions, what am I missing?

[Socrates]

The central issue of injustice was that England was using the colonies as a means of building wealth for the British Crownm, yet would not allow the colonists any say in how they were governed (as Englishmen were).

The American colonists had a right to be independent in government from the English, which the English denied them, and the Americans were willing to fight for that independece.

America was not waging an unjust war. Britain was ruling America by military occupation. The Americans were not attacking England itself or even trying to topple the English crown. They just wanted to have their own country, rather than ruled by an overseas power. Britain, if it had been so inclined, could have withdrawn its troops and recognized America's independence, if it did desire a war or bloodshed. Instead, England wished to subjugate the Americans by military force. Keep in mind that Britain was the greatest military force in the world at that time, and the American patriots were willing to take great risks for their independence. So trying to portray the Revolutionary War as an unjust attack by one nation (the Americans) against another (the British) is false. The Americans just wanted independence.

Don't tread on me!

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Socrates' date='May 7 2005, 10:03 PM'] The Americans had been living in America, seperate from the English, for generations. They grew their own food, made their own goods, etc. , yet they were controlled by and had to pay taxes to the government of a land far across the ocean that wanted to tell them what to do without them having any say in it. And that their ancestors came from England is irrelevant. Many colonists came from other countries such as Germany, Ireland, and France. Were they to stay loyal to their respective ancestral homelands, or to obey the English?

Don't tread on me!!! [/quote]
Well That sounds like Texas to me, but some how I think if we decided to leave the feds wouldn't let us go, I mean they didn't last time. Why are we controled by people from Maine and New York?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Socrates' date='May 8 2005, 08:00 PM'] The central issue of injustice was that England was using the colonies as a means of building wealth for the British Crownm, yet would not allow the colonists any say in how they were governed (as Englishmen were).

The American colonists had a right to be independent in government from the English, which the English denied them, and the Americans were willing to fight for that independece.

America was not waging an unjust war. Britain was ruling America by military occupation. The Americans were not attacking England itself or even trying to topple the English crown. They just wanted to have their own country, rather than ruled by an overseas power. Britain, if it had been so inclined, could have withdrawn its troops and recognized America's independence, if it did desire a war or bloodshed. Instead, England wished to subjugate the Americans by military force. Keep in mind that Britain was the greatest military force in the world at that time, and the American patriots were willing to take great risks for their independence. So trying to portray the Revolutionary War as an unjust attack by one nation (the Americans) against another (the British) is false. The Americans just wanted independence.

Don't tread on me! [/quote]
Oh PLEEEEESE ! The Colonist where revolting agianst the rightful government one that was far more just than any we have had since then. Military occupation are you serious?

[quote]They just wanted to have their own country, rather than ruled by an overseas power.  Britain, if it had been so inclined, could have withdrawn its troops and recognized America's independence, if it did desire a war or bloodshed. [/quote]


The North could have kept it's troops at home and let the South just become there own country. For that matter they could have let the Mormans Keep their country too. Wiat I understand what your saying, there really shouldn't be counries, we should have some sort of organic structure where every time somebody gets a burr up their ---- they can start a new counrty... I get it. I think thats called Anarchy.

The British where right, we where wrong, it was unjust on our side not on theirs.

[ardillacid]

^^precisely

[ardillacid]

arrrgh...I started this thread hoping someone could convince me it was just. C'mon, someone has to have better arguments

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='ardillacid' date='May 9 2005, 12:28 AM'] arrrgh...I started this thread hoping someone could convince me it was just. C'mon, someone has to have better arguments [/quote]
Well the problem with that plan is that it wasn't just.