The Spanish Inquisition

[ardillacid]

Not infrequently the Catholic Church is attacked on the basis of the Spanish Inquisition. It is actually an interesting topic if you look beyond the shallow attacks on the Church

[phatcatholic]

to help facilitate discussion:

--[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm"]Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Inquisition.asp"]The Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=977"]Beyond the Myth of the Inquisition: Ours Is the Golden Age[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=957"]Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=979"]Inquisition in the Catholic Church[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=975"]The Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=959"]The Spanish Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=958"]The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=3930"]The Truth about the Spanish Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=2719"]The Role of the Inquisition in Europe[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ366.HTM"]The Inquisition: Its Purpose and Rationale Within the Mediæval Worldview[/url]
--[url="http://members.tripod.com/~frjoe/inquisition.htm"]The Inquisition and the Church[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/SPANINQ.TXT"]A New Look at the Spanish Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=647"]The Spanish Inquisiton: Fact vs. Fiction[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/article1.html"]Remote Motes and Present Beams: The Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/article3.html"]A New Industry: The Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/article5.html"]Inquisition on the Web[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/column1.html"]Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=695"]Inquisition Requires Calm, Objective Analysis[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.net/apolo_105.htm"]The "Holy" or "Bloody" Spanish Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/militantis/inquisition2.html"]The Holy Inquisition: Myth or Reality?[/url]
--[url="http://www.cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=79"]Inquisition in the Catholic Church[/url]
--[url="http://www.cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=80"]The Role of the Inquisition in Europe[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/inquist.htm"]The Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/INQUIS2.htm"]Inquisitive about the Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/column3.html"]One Cheer for Inquisitions[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/INQUISIT.htm"]Questions Concerning the Spanish Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/column2.html"]Tough Love[/url]

[LittleLes]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='May 8 2005, 02:40 AM'] to help facilitate discussion:

--[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm"]Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Inquisition.asp"]The Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=977"]Beyond the Myth of the Inquisition: Ours Is the Golden Age[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=957"]Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=979"]Inquisition in the Catholic Church[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=975"]The Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=959"]The Spanish Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=958"]The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=3930"]The Truth about the Spanish Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=2719"]The Role of the Inquisition in Europe[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ366.HTM"]The Inquisition: Its Purpose and Rationale Within the Mediæval Worldview[/url]
--[url="http://members.tripod.com/~frjoe/inquisition.htm"]The Inquisition and the Church[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/SPANINQ.TXT"]A New Look at the Spanish Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=647"]The Spanish Inquisiton: Fact vs. Fiction[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/article1.html"]Remote Motes and Present Beams: The Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/article3.html"]A New Industry: The Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/article5.html"]Inquisition on the Web[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/column1.html"]Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=695"]Inquisition Requires Calm, Objective Analysis[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.net/apolo_105.htm"]The "Holy" or "Bloody" Spanish Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/militantis/inquisition2.html"]The Holy Inquisition: Myth or Reality?[/url]
--[url="http://www.cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=79"]Inquisition in the Catholic Church[/url]
--[url="http://www.cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=80"]The Role of the Inquisition in Europe[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/inquist.htm"]The Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/INQUIS2.htm"]Inquisitive about the Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/column3.html"]One Cheer for Inquisitions[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/INQUISIT.htm"]Questions Concerning the Spanish Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/column2.html"]Tough Love[/url] [/quote]
Hi Phatcatholic,

Are you restricting the discussion to the Spanish Inquisition only, or are you including the much larger Inquisition of the German women accused of being witches? See the papal writing, "The Witches Bull" and the "Hammer of Witches," both of which are in our history books and on the web.

LittleLes

[cmotherofpirl]

The topic is the Spanish inquisition.
One myth at a time.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]"The Spanish Inquisition was established to deal with the special problem created in Spain by the very large numbers of its citizens known as [i]conversos[/i]. These were people who had converted from Islam or Judaism to Christianity, either recently in person or as a result of the conversion of their forebears had become so with the passage of time and generations. But many others had high public office, and obviously only they could hold positions in the Church, which were very influential--or by fear, particularly when there was large-scale mob violence against non-Christians. And once an individual was baptized, he was not permitted to return to Judaism or Islam.

There is convincing, indeed overwhelming evidence, which even the most critical modern historians have acknowledged, that tens of thousands of false [i]conversos[/i], who did not believe in the Christianity they professed, continued to live secretly by the teachings and rites of their or their forebears' former religion. Many had risen high in Christian society, even in the Church; some were priests who mocked the Mass as they said it. While most of the reports of [i]conversos[/i] engaging in satanic rites and crucifying children were probably false, it would be rash to say that all of them were; for the worst passions in human nature feed on the kind of situation in which the false [i]conversos[/i] found themselves.

Every false [i]converso[/i] in Spain was a potential traitor--a man capable of, and very possibly inclined to opening the gates of its coastal cities to the likes of the Turkish mass killers of Otranto. And by the same token, every true [i]converso[/i]--men such as Fray Hernando de Talavera, Isabel's saintly confessor; Cabrera, husband of her dearest friend--was open to suspicion of infidelity and treason, their reputation and careers forever in jeopardy of a false accusation to this effect. The danger was greatest in the south, particularly in Sevilla, the most populous city in Spain, not reconquered until 1250, where at least half the population had been non-Christian. Particularly after the horror of Otranto, this danger simply could not be ignored.

The Inquisition is the centerpiece of the "black legend" of Spanish history. The torture it occasionally inflicted (though not as a regular practice) and the burning at the stake which the government ordered for those the Inquisition had convicted twice, cannot be defended--though they were by no means evils unique to the Inquisition or the Spain. But the historian has a duty to put the Inquisition in perspective, rarely though this may be done. It did not engage in mass murder. The contemporary historian Pulgar estimates the total number of those burned to death because of its findings during Isabel's reign as no more than 2,000, an average of about 100 a year. Some 15,000 were found guilty of false profession of Christianity, but were reconciled with the Church in the public ceremony known as the [i]auto-de-fe[/i], meaning "act of faith"--that is, public confession of their error and reconciliation with the faith they had rejected. Because on that same occasion the few deemed irreconcilable were burned, the term [i]auto-de-fe[/i] has come to mean, for those who know no Spanish, "burning at the stake," but the number reconciled was always much larger than the number completely cleared--including St. Ignatius of Loyola and St. Teresa of Avila and all so-called witches whose cases were brought before the Inquisition in the next century. For them, the Inquisition was a shield against calumny.

The Inquisition had no jurisdiction over practicing Jews and Muslims, only over professed Christians who were in fact still Jews or Muslims, though concealing it. After its initial abuses were eliminated following the appointment of Tomas de Torquemada as Inquisitor-General for Castile in 1483, the inquisitorial tribunals were generally fair; many preferred to have their cases heard by them rather than in other courts. Those questioned by the Inquisition were not allowed to face their accusers because of the danger of blood feuds and revenge-seeking if their identity were known. But no one could be confined even briefly without the prior testimony of three witnesses against him, and anyone brought before the Inquisition as a suspect was asked first of all to make a list of all his personal enemies, whose testimony against him, if made, was immediately thrown out. No anonymous testimony was permitted. The accused had a defense attorney, often two, although they were assigned by the Inquisition...

The modern world regards heresy as not a crime, but a joke. But the vast slaughters of men, women, and children by the two worst totalitarian regimes of the twentieth century were carried out by men who bitterly hated Christianity and never hesitated to say so. Hitler was an apostate Catholic, Stalin an apostate Orthodox seminarian. Between them, they took at least thirty million lives, beside which the grand total of executions by referral from the Spanish Inquisition over its entire 300-year history is hardly measureable by comparison. They would not have been free to gain power in a time which would have taken them at their word and knew the cost and consequences of their hatred of Christianity, which many of those condemned by the Inquisition also nourished. Tomas de Torquemada would have known how to deal--and to deal early--with Hitler and Stalin.

(Warren H. Carroll, "The Glory of Christendom", pp. 607-609)[/quote]

[LittleLes]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 8 2005, 06:56 AM'] The topic is the Spanish inquisition.
One myth at a time. [/quote]
Are you seriously going to argue that the Spanish Inquisition was a "myth?"

LittleLes

[theculturewarrior]

The Spanish Inquisition is a tragic story in the pages of Christianity, but it's important to remember that [b]1.[/b] It was condemned by Pope Alexander VI, and the Spanish government continued in disobedience. [b]2.[/b] Even it being a secular institution, it was comparatively gentle to some other institutions of the time. For example, the inquisitors were not permitted to draw blood. There was an element of due process that was absent in other judicial institutions of the day.

[toledo_jesus]

most of what I know about the Spanish Inquisition is that...No one expects it.

[img]http://www.jumpstation.ca/recroom/comedy/python/images/spain.gif[/img]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='May 8 2005, 01:04 PM'] Are you seriously going to argue that the Spanish Inquisition was a "myth?"

LittleLes [/quote]
no.
But you think it was is most likely a myth.

[Antonius]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='May 8 2005, 11:33 AM'] most of what I know about the Spanish Inquisition is that...No one expects it.

[img]http://www.jumpstation.ca/recroom/comedy/python/images/spain.gif[/img] [/quote]
lol



Make her sit in the very comfy chair!

[Ordo.Teutonicorum]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='May 8 2005, 11:04 AM'] Are you seriously going to argue that the Spanish Inquisition was a "myth?"

LittleLes [/quote]
I'll argue that the inquisitions on witches in Germany were a myth. You see, the Roman inquisition, the one run by the pope, had very little to do with witches. While the Catholic church did believe in witches, it was mostly the Protestants who burned them. The burning times coincide almost exactly with the rise of protestantism, a sharp economic decline, and the wars of religion. Not a coincidence.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='Ordo.Teutonicorum' date='May 8 2005, 12:42 PM'] I'll argue that the inquisitions on witches in Germany were a myth. You see, the Roman inquisition, the one run by the pope, had very little to do with witches. While the Catholic church did believe in witches, it was mostly the Protestants who burned them. The burning times coincide almost exactly with the rise of protestantism, a sharp economic decline, and the wars of religion. Not a coincidence. [/quote]
The problem here is this is supposed to be about the [i]Spanish[/i] Inquisition.


However, your topic is of interest. May I suggest a new thread on it?

[LittleLes]

Some can always justify the use of torture in the name of national security. This is particularly the case if one can get someone else to do the torturing. Hasn't that become an issue recently?

And isn't the Warren Carroll whose book you quote which attempts to justify the Spanish Inquisition the founder of the very conservative Catholic Christendom University? And as I recall Dr. Carroll's biography, wasn't he once in the employ of the CIA? Do you suppose that's where he got his ideas?

LittleLes

Edited May 8, 2005 by LittleLes

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]And isn't the Warren Carroll whose book you quote which attempts to justify the Spanish Inquisition the founder of the very conservative Catholic Christendom University? And as I recall Dr. Carroll's biography, wasn't he once in the employ of the CIA? Do you suppose that's where he got his ideas?[/quote]

What does this have to do with anything I posted? Warren Carroll is a historian. The citation provided gives a historical account of reality. As far as torture goes, Carroll specifically denies that it can be defended. What he does defend is the Inquisition itself, which was nothing more than what its name suggests: an investigative body in defense of the state.

Did you even read the passage?

[quote]The torture it occasionally inflicted (though not as a regular practice) and the burning at the stake which the government ordered for those the Inquisition had convicted twice, cannot be defended--though they were by no means evils unique to the Inquisition or to Spain.[/quote]

[LittleLes]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='May 8 2005, 11:09 AM'] The Spanish Inquisition is a tragic story in the pages of Christianity, but it's important to remember that [b]1.[/b] It was condemned by Pope Alexander VI, and the Spanish government continued in disobedience. [b]2.[/b] Even it being a secular institution, it was comparatively gentle to some other institutions of the time. For example, the inquisitors were not permitted to draw blood. There was an element of due process that was absent in other judicial institutions of the day. [/quote]
I am always entertained by the Catholic apologetics revision of history. Let's look at Pope Alexander IV's Bull of 1256:

"Bishop Alexander, the servant of the servants of God, fondly sends greetings an apostolic blessings to the fraternal sons of the Order of Preachers, who are inquisitors in the terrible depraved heresy in Tholosa and in all the lands of that noble man, the Count of Poitou. So that you may proceed more freely in carrying out the business of faith, we grant that, by the present authority, if out of human weakness, in some cases you incur a sentence of excommunication and irregulatiry, or that you remember that you may have incurred such, and because of the exercise of the office that you bear you are not able to go to your superiors, we grant that you can absolve yourselves according to the form of the church and dispense by your authority, in the same manner as ws granted by the apostolic see to your superiors."

Henry Charles Lea, "History of the Inquisition in the Middle Ages," Harper, NY. pg 575

Translation, if the someone died under torture by the Dominicans, they could absolve themselves.

Is it seriously being maintain, that this was not the position of the Church and, as in the case of chattel slavery, the Church really opposed to the use of torture by its members to discover heresy ?

LittleLes

Edited May 8, 2005 by LittleLes