Just War

[philothea]

In an interview with Zenit on May 2, 2003, Cardinal Ratzinger restated the position of the Holy Father on the Iraq war (II) and on the question of the possibility of a just war in today's world.: "There were not sufficient reasons to unleash a war against Iraq. To say nothing of the fact that, given the new weapons that make possible destructions that go beyond the combatant groups, today we should be asking ourselves if it is still licit to admit the very existence of a "just war."

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 10 2005, 09:32 PM'] sweet! if I were a soldier I'd definitely hang my rosary from my gun.

God bless those soldiers with their rosaries on their guns fighting the good fight against terrorism regardless of whether they should have been sent to Iraq 2 years ago or not.  [/quote]
Yeah i kinds was thinking the same thing especially now when priest won't ussually bless your arms. Although many will bless your body armour.

Edited May 11, 2005 by Don John of Austria

[IesusDeus]

[quote name='philothea' date='May 11 2005, 08:33 AM']In an interview with Zenit on May 2, 2003, Cardinal Ratzinger restated the position of the Holy Father on the Iraq war (II) and on the question of the possibility of a just war in today's world.: "There were not sufficient reasons to unleash a war against Iraq. To say nothing of the fact that, given the new weapons that make possible destructions that go beyond the combatant groups, today we should be asking ourselves if it is still licit to admit the very existence of a "just war."[/quote]
Great quote.
Here is one more:

[quote]"Decisive action against terrorism should not take the form of military campaign. 'Violence begets violence.' War must always be considered a defeat; a defeat of reason and of humanity. [I urge international leaders] not to give in to the logic of violence, vendetta, and hatred, but rather to persevere in dialogue.  [I hope that] men soon make a spiritual and cultural leap forward to outlaw war!" - Pope John-Paul II[/quote]

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='philothea' date='May 11 2005, 08:33 AM'] In an interview with Zenit on May 2, 2003, Cardinal Ratzinger restated the position of the Holy Father on the Iraq war (II) and on the question of the possibility of a just war in today's world.: "There were not sufficient reasons to unleash a war against Iraq. To say nothing of the fact that, given the new weapons that make possible destructions that go beyond the combatant groups, today we should be asking ourselves if it is still licit to admit the very existence of a "just war." [/quote]
Well with all respect to JPII I don't think that the Office of Pope made him an expert on military matters and modern arms, he was simply wrong on the matter.

[philothea]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 11 2005, 08:54 AM'] Well with all respect to JPII I don't think that the Office of Pope made him an expert on military matters and modern arms, he was simply wrong on the matter. [/quote]
Current conservative estimates say there have been about 23,000 civilian casualties due to the US military intervention.

I asked elsewhere but no one answered. How many innocent bystanders is it okay to kill?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='philothea' date='May 11 2005, 09:06 AM'] Current conservative estimates say there have been about 23,000 civilian casualties due to the US military intervention.

I asked elsewhere but no one answered.  How many innocent bystanders is it okay to kill? [/quote]
All of them that are truely killed accidentally. A million, 10 million, if the intent is not to harm them and only the amout of force needed to destroy the enemy combatants is used then accidental civilian deaths are irrelevant. Frankly I find the entire idea that the number of casualties in a war has an meaning at all some what offenseive, any intentional attack on civilians is wrong, if 1 dies that attack was just as wrong as if 1000 die, keeping count smacks of secular humanist BS to me. This is notthe same as the proportianality issue in determining a just war, because this has to do with the conduct of war, civilians die in war, the introduction of Total War has put civilians even more at risk. Still if the cause is Just, the target is military; civilians are not targets and reasonable force and no more is used then their is no number of civilians that can be magically determined as Okay or not Okay. The only answer would be -- as few as possible, as many as happen.

Edited May 11, 2005 by Don John of Austria

[philothea]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 11 2005, 09:29 AM'] All of them that are truely killed accidentally. A million, 10 million, if the intent is not to harm them and only the amout of force needed to destroy the enemy combatants is used then accidental civilian deaths are irrelevant. [/quote]
Thank you for your answer. (As always!)

Is the killing of a civilian truly accidental, when the weapons used are designed such that they cannot be used [i]without[/i] killing civilians?

I would assume accidental means that an honest effort was made to avoid the unwanted result.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='philothea' date='May 11 2005, 09:47 AM'] Thank you for your answer. (As always!)

Is the killing of a civilian truly accidental, when the weapons used are designed such that they cannot be used [i]without[/i] killing civilians?

I would assume accidental means that an honest effort was made to avoid the unwanted result. [/quote]
in general yes thats what it means but it also has a specific meaning taken from the principle of double effect.

[jasJis]

[quote name='philothea' date='May 11 2005, 07:43 AM'] Actually, I was getting my information from John Paul II. I was under the impression he was kinda qualified to teach Catholic morality.

Silly me. [/quote]
I was referring to your comment regarding modern weaponry. My parents and in-laws were in Europe during WWII and experienced first hand the 'doodle-bug' bombs hitting London and the large scale destruction of cities and civillian populations.

Modern conventional weapons are less destructive to civillians, though modern weapons such as nukes and chemical agents are more destructive. The challenge now is countries refraining from using nuclear weapons, such as Pakistan, North Korea, Iran, etc.

At what threshold do you, philothea, accept civillian casualties by despotic or aggressive governments before other nations should step in with war?

[philothea]

[quote name='jasJis' date='May 11 2005, 12:54 PM'] At what threshold do you, philothea, accept civillian casualties by despotic or aggressive governments before other nations should step in with war? [/quote]
I do not have the calling or the wisdom to decide such things. In my small, individual capacity, I try only to understand and to assent to what the Church tells me.

[PennyLane]

Okay so what about the soldiers that tortured the prisoners??

I appreciate everyone's opinion on year, thank you!!

God bless you all.

Bottom line though: Whether or not we support the war, we should support it for the sake of the people fighting over there. Just look at what happened after Vietnam, we need the soldiers over there to be confident that the US wants them over there, even if it is for wrong reasons.

The reason I have a problem with the Rosary's being on the guns is simple, they're Rosaries. Not all the weapons are being used in self-defense. The Rosary represents our Mary. I *personally* don't think it's right.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='PennyLane' date='May 11 2005, 01:03 PM'] Okay so what about the soldiers that tortured the prisoners??

I appreciate everyone's opinion on year, thank you!!

God bless you all.

Bottom line though: Whether or not we support the war, we should support it for the sake of the people fighting over there. Just look at what happened after Vietnam, we need the soldiers over there to be confident that the US wants them over there, even if it is for wrong reasons.

The reason I have a problem with the Rosary's being on the guns is simple, they're Rosaries. Not all the weapons are being used in self-defense. The Rosary represents our Mary. I *personally* don't think it's right. [/quote]
Torture particularly that which degrads the human being is always wrong.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='philothea' date='May 11 2005, 01:00 PM'] I do not have the calling or the wisdom to decide such things. In my small, individual capacity, I try only to understand and to assent to what the Church tells me. [/quote]
your humility is truely inspireing I mean that.

[jasJis]

[quote name='PennyLane' date='May 11 2005, 01:03 PM'] Okay so what about the soldiers that tortured the prisoners?? [/quote]
These soldiers were wrong, did not follow military directions, and are now being tried in court. It is an obvious sign of imperfect humanity. But compare it honestly with the Sadaam government. Mass graves, torture and rape as a government sanctioned activity. No trials. Rule by brutal tyranny.

[philothea]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 11 2005, 02:39 PM'] your humility is truely inspireing I mean that. [/quote]


Personally, I have found your zeal, honesty, and knowledge inspiring.