Mary in labor

[Lil Red]

i've been thinking about this as i meditate on the joyful mysteries of the holy rosary. do you think that mary suffered labor pains during the birth of our Lord? i'm very curious to hear responses on this. God bless!

[Paphnutius]

Although she was without original sin she still suffered the effects from it for she lived in a world affected by it. My answer would be yes. I really do not know if the Church has a definite answer on it. It will be interesting to see what everyone else brings to the discussion though.

[Mateo el Feo]

According to Saint Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica, the answer is: Mary did not suffer during the birth of Our Lord.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/403506.htm"]Whether Christ was born without His Mother suffering?[/url]

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I do not believe that she did. I do not see how she could suffer the effects of Original Sin.

[phatcatholic]

some of the earliest ECFs testified that she did not have pain in child birth, and we see their testimony as the seed of the Church's belief in her sinlessness:[list]The Ascension of Isaiah
The report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, "The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months." And many said, "She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain" (Ascension of Isaiah11 [A.D. 70]).

The Odes of Solomon
So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will (Odes of Solomon19 [A.D. 80]).
[/list]however, in revelation we see that the woman who bears a son has pain in childbirth. how is this reconciled w/ her sinlessness? i wrote this in another thread:[list]what we have to remember about this woman from revelations is that she represents three different entities (Israel, the Church, and Mary), each one in a different way and neither one entirely (or perfectly). so, some qualities of the woman represent the Church, while others represent Mary. likewise, some of the actions that take place are literal, while others are figurative. any biblical scholar, catholic or protestant, will tell you that it is dangerous to approach the book of revelations w/ only one form of interpretation.

w/ this in mind, lets look now at the verses in question:

[b]Rev 12:1-2[/b]
[b]1 [/b]And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
[b]2 [/b]she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery.

the claim against mary's sinlessness that we are addressing presupposes that the woman in these verses is mary, so there's no need to defend that here. if the woman is mary, then the child is Jesus. but, what of these "pangs of birth"? i contend that this "birth" is spiritual, not physical.

for one, we have much evidence from scripture that points to mary's sinlessness, in which case she would indeed have no pain in physical child birth. secondly, labor pains are often used as a metaphor for the suffering that we go through when we attempt to bring Christ to the world, when we "birth him" w/in the hearts of men:

[b]Isa 42:13-16[/b]
[b]13 [/b]The LORD goes forth like a mighty man, like a man of war he stirs up his fury; he cries out, he shouts aloud, he shows himself mighty against his foes.
[b]14 [/b]For a long time I have held my peace, I have kept still and restrained myself; now I will cry out like a woman in travail, I will gasp and pant.
[b]15 [/b]I will lay waste mountains and hills, and dry up all their herbage; I will turn the rivers into islands, and dry up the pools.
[b]16 [/b]And I will lead the blind in a way that they know not, in paths that they have not known I will guide them. I will turn the darkness before them into light, the rough places into level ground. These are the things I will do, and I will not forsake them.

[b]Isa 53:10-11[/b]
[b]10 [/b]Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;
[b]11 [/b]he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities.

[b]John 16:20-22[/b]
[b]20 [/b]Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy.
[b]21 [/b]When a woman is in travail she has sorrow, because her hour has come; but when she is delivered of the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a child is born into the world.
[b]22 [/b]So you have sorrow now, but I will see you again and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you.

[b]Rom 8:19-23[/b]
[b]19 [/b]For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God;
[b]20 [/b]for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope;
[b]21 [/b]because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God.
[b]22 [/b]We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now;
[b]23 [/b]and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

[b]Gal 4:19 [/b]My little children, with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you!

Mary feels this pain at the foot of the cross. by physically bringing jesus into the world she also provides him who is our means of salvation. at the cross, jesus is working to make this a reality, and mary is there, uniting her suffering to his, experiencing the pain that is necessary so that Jesus may be born w/in the hearts of men. Simeon prophecied the suffering that mary would have to endure ("Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is spoken against, and a sword will pierce through your own soul also, that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed.") and it is this suffering that is being alluded to in Rev. 12.
[/list]so, all this would lead me to believe that our beliefs are secure about mary, rather she suffered pain in child birth or not.

pax christi,
phatcatholic