Mary in labor

[Lil Red]

i've been thinking about this as i meditate on the joyful mysteries of the holy rosary. do you think that mary suffered labor pains during the birth of our Lord? i'm very curious to hear responses on this. God bless!

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

I dunno... I heard that she didn't... but I don't know...

[Thy Geekdom Come]

There's a quote by a theologian, I don't recall who, saying that Jesus' birth was like "light passing through glass"...

[Lil Red]

what does THAT mean? i'm a simple girl, raph, break it down for me.

[WCC_Catholic]

i dont think that she had pain. medically it is impossible for a virgin to give birth alot of tecnically stuff i cant remember (mother a doc) and so it would have been very painful that is why i think that it was painless

[MichaelFilo]

Birth pains are a chastisement (Genesis). She is sinless, so no chastisement without the sin.

God bless,
Mikey

[iggy]

We talked about this in my bible study, and one of the girls found a book that said it was a miraculous birth, and Jesus didn't pass though Mary's birth canal, preserving her virginity... I don't remember the book but I can ask her if you really want to know

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 17 2005, 02:29 PM'] Birth pains are a chastisement (Genesis). She is sinless, so no chastisement without the sin.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
In Genesis it says that her (Eve's and subsequently all women's) labor pains will greatly increase. This does not rule out that there was no pain to begin with.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='iggy' date='May 17 2005, 01:31 PM'] We talked about this in my bible study, and one of the girls found a book that said it was a miraculous birth, and Jesus didn't pass though Mary's birth canal, preserving her virginity... I don't remember the book but I can ask her if you really want to know [/quote]
i would appreciate it. thank you!

[Mateo el Feo]

Same answer from the "The Word and Apologetics" forum:

According to Saint Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica, the answer is: Mary did not suffer during the birth of Our Lord.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/403506.htm"]Link: Whether Christ was born without His Mother suffering?[/url]

Edited May 17, 2005 by Mateo el Feo

[MichaelFilo]

That is true. I would think that light birth pains (even lighter than the original amount prior to the fall) occured. Remember, Jesus was Man, and God. He came in as we all did (albiet, through the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary).

Edit* I retract what I said. Ol' St. Thomas Aquinas went ahead and proved me wrong again.

God bless,
Mikey

Edited May 17, 2005 by MichaelFilo

[Paphnutius]

Just to play devil's advocate:

She was preserved from sin, but was she preserved from the effects of original sin? We are in need of a savior because of sin, was Mary also not in need of that same savior although she did not sin? Did she not get sick? She lived in a world affected by sin, although she remained sinless.

BTW-don't be afraid to disagree with people like Aquinas. He was not omniscient. Just be sure that you know why you are disagreeing and can support yourself.

[Lil Red]

thanks, i was just going to ask for opposing viewpoints.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='May 17 2005, 03:07 PM'] Just to play devil's advocate:

She was preserved from sin, but was she preserved from the effects of original sin? We are in need of a savior because of sin, was Mary also not in need of that same savior although she did not sin? Did she not get sick? She lived in a world affected by sin, although she remained sinless.

BTW-don't be afraid to disagree with people like Aquinas. He was not omniscient. Just be sure that you know why you are disagreeing and can support yourself. [/quote]
Mary's Immaculate Conception preserved her from Original Sin, right? Thus, if being preserved from Original Sin would she not also be preserved from the effects of it? That seems to only make sense...

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='May 17 2005, 04:07 PM'] Mary's Immaculate Conception preserved her from Original Sin, right? Thus, if being preserved from Original Sin would she not also be preserved from the effects of it? That seems to only make sense... [/quote]
She was preserved from certain effects (such as concupisence (sp?....why couldnt they pick an easier word to spell?!)), but not from the temporal ones.

From New Advent:

[quote]". . .was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin. . ." The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was in her soul. Simultaneously with the exclusion of sin. The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining to original sin, were excluded. [b]But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam -- from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death. [/b][/quote]

emphasis mine.

[FutureSoror]

Very very interesting...

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='May 17 2005, 04:20 PM'] She was preserved from certain effects (such as concupisence (sp?....why couldnt they pick an easier word to spell?!)), but not from the temporal ones. [/quote]
(because they enjoy watching faces turn red. )

Interesting. So how can we say then that Mary was fully preserved from Original Sin, if she were not fully preserved from ALL its effects? Isn't it part of the doctrine of her Assumption?

How is sorrow a "temporal" penalty? It's an emotion. Our emotions would be incomplete without it...

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='May 17 2005, 04:33 PM'] (because they enjoy watching faces turn red. )

Interesting. So how can we say then that Mary was fully preserved from Original Sin, if she were not fully preserved from ALL its effects? Isn't it part of the doctrine of her Assumption?

How is sorrow a "temporal" penalty? It's an emotion. Our emotions would be incomplete without it... [/quote]
Yeah sometimes I think Augustine just did that to irritate us.

Anyway...Mary was preserved from all stain of Original Sin, not all of the effects. The stain of original sin is what makes us own the debt to God. The effects are just things that came into the world because of the sin. Once again from New Advent:

[quote]". . .in the first instance of her conception . . ." The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. [b]Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin [/b]at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul[/quote]

Emphasis mine.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Paphnutius, I can agree with New Advent's article. However, it says nothing to the "effects" of Original Sin. Neither does the Catechism. I'm just saying it doesn't seem to make sense to me. To be preserved, personally, from Original Sin it seems that she should also be preserved, personally, from its effects (which would include pain in childbirth).
Besides, bearing Christ in pain would not make sense. As St. Thomas says, it's not fitting that He who came to heal all corruption should corrupt the womb of His mother... hence the "light through glass" thing.

I'm currently reading "ineffabilis deus" for more edification on the matter.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='May 17 2005, 09:44 PM'] Paphnutius, I can agree with New Advent's article. However, it says nothing to the "effects" of Original Sin. Neither does the Catechism. I'm just saying it doesn't seem to make sense to me. To be preserved, personally, from Original Sin it seems that she should also be preserved, personally, from its effects [/quote]
It does say that she was not exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam. That was in the first quote I posted. I was simply making a point that while preserved from the taint of original sin, she still suffered some of the penalties of it.