Praying for the Intercession of Mary

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I have heard people make the claim that the reason we pray for the intercession of Mary as Catholics is to get her to change her Son's mind and work for us the way we want. They don't like this because, of course, it sounds like manipulation and trying to use Mary to rule over God.

However, what I see here is not a weakening in the case for Mary's intercession, but a strengthening of it.

Jesus has to obey Mary, it's the fourth commandment. So if Mary were anything but immaculate, there would be enormous risk that Mary would tell Jesus to do something wrong.

However, Mary is immaculate, and wholly and completely obedient to the will of God, Jesus, her Son. Their wills are completely in line with one another.

I believe that the fact that Jesus submitted Himself to the fourth commandment in regard to Mary is a strengthening of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. It can't prove it alone, since that would imply that Joseph was also immaculate, but it does make a case for it, especially since Joseph, we know, was a "righteous man" as well as the foster father and not the biological father of Jesus.

Comments? Discussion?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

No one?

[Dave]

Well, I don't know if I'd say that it has anything to do with the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady, as Mary is in heaven now. Regardless of whether or not we were conceived immaculately or not, in heaven our will will be in perfect union with God's will. Of course, since Mary was immaculately conceived, her will was always in union with God's will at all times -- and still is. But I digress. Anyway, no saint in heaven -- including Our Lady -- will intercede for any particular favor that is against God's will. But of course, often God's will is conditional in that He wants us to ask for something otherwise He might not give it to us. Also, God may choose to honor Mary or some other saint by willing that he ask that saint's intercession.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Yes, but Mary did intercede at least once during her earthly lifetime...presumably, she did so more often, as well.

[Archangel]

The Miracle in Cana shows that Mary's intercession is powerful enough to change God's timetable.

[Seven77]

We just read a paragraph about this very subject in the [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=33201&st=0"] True Devotion to Mary book reading thread[/url]. She wills only what GOD wills.

St. Louis de Montfort says the following:

[quote]27. Since grace enhances our human nature and glory adds a still greater perfection to grace, it is certain that our Lord remains in heaven just as much the Son of Mary as he was on earth. Consequently he has retained the submissiveness and obedience of the most perfect of all children towards the best of all mothers.

We must take care, however, not to consider this dependence as an abasement or imperfection in Jesus Christ. For Mary, infinitely inferior to her Son, who is God, does not command him in the same way as an earthly mother would command her child who is beneath her. [b]Since she is completely transformed in God by that grace and glory which transforms all the saints in him, she does not ask or wish or do anything which is contrary to the eternal and changeless will of God.[/b] When therefore we read in the writings of Saint Bernard, Saint Bernardine, Saint Bonaventure, and others that all in heaven and on earth, even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God was pleased to give her is so great that she seems to have the same power as God.  [b]Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother's prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will.[/b]
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Edited May 19, 2005 by Seven77

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

isn't it more like we pray for Mary's intercession because she has more Favor with God then us sinners do?

thats what I've always thought.

thats what the Greek Orthodox believe too.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='May 19 2005, 06:58 PM'] isn't it more like we pray for Mary's intercession because she has more Favor with God then us sinners do?

thats what I've always thought.

thats what the Greek Orthodox believe too. [/quote]
Yes, and that's precisely what we mean.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='May 19 2005, 03:58 PM'] isn't it more like we pray for Mary's intercession because she has more Favor with God then us sinners do?

thats what I've always thought.

thats what the Greek Orthodox believe too. [/quote]
It would be better to say that Mary has been divinized by her participation in God. Thus, she has become God in God.

Grace in the Eastern Orthodox tradition is not "favor"; instead, it is divine energy, i.e., it is God Himself as He exists outside of His essence.