John 6:52

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. ffff
Jhn 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat? [/quote]

explain below

[Socrates]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='May 18 2005, 01:51 PM']
explain below [/quote]
Your question (as usual) makes no sense and is unclear.

The same Flesh that was Crucified is truly present in the Eucharist.
The Mass the same Sacrifice as the Sacrifice on the cross.

Edited May 18, 2005 by Socrates

[Don John of Austria]

I don't understand your question.

[dairygirl4u2c]

I'll ignore Socrates as he has the personality that if something is black, and he thinks it's blue, you cannot tell him its black. Or you have to spell out everything for him. Perhaps I'm being unclear, but he's surely not the one to gauge that by.

But I'll clarify as others mentioned a prob. You have to read the passage that I got the quote from. Read after he finishes splitting the loaves on. The verse in the first post in this thread is after the splitting and before the parable of "eat my flesh" etc. At the point in the discourse the Jews said "how can this man give us his flesh to eat?" I'll rephrase the question, at this point, couldn't the interpretation that Jesus was referring to believing in the flesh of Jesus on the cross as atoning and not as the flesh that must be literally eaten in the sense believed by the Catholic Church (specifying not as just for those who want to play polemics)?

Edited May 18, 2005 by dairygirl4u2c

[Archangel]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='May 18 2005, 01:34 PM']I'll rephrase the question, at this point, couldn't the interpretation that Jesus was referring to believing in the flesh of Jesus on the cross as atoning and not as the flesh that must be literally eaten in the sense believed by the Catholic Church (specifying not as just for those who want to play polemics)?[/quote]
Only if you isolate certain verses. But if you look at the entire chapter, you can see that Jesus wants us to literally eat His Flesh and drink His Blood.

For one thing, He preceded His teaching about the Eucharist with the miracle of the loaves and fishes to show that He can and will feed the multitudes. Also, Jesus mentions several times that He is indeed the the Bread sent down from Heaven (John 6:35,41,48,51). In addition, the Jews question this teaching because they take it literally. Lastly, the Greek text uses the word "trogo", meaning to literally "gnaw, crunch, chew" His flesh.

[Myles Domini]

I could have replied to both the threads you started Dairy Girl but I think we've been here before and I didnt feel it neccessary to go there again. I'm sure that before too long this thread and the other one on patristic support for the real presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament will start to fill. Until Berengarius of Tours in the 11th century nobody even questioned whether or not Our Lord was present in the Blessed Sacrament and one of the charges the Romans brought against the Christians before the Empire became Christian was that Christians engaged in cananbalism because they claimed to eat the Lord's body. All this is independently varifiable. Go into an Eastern Orthodox Church and ask them about the real presence, go into an Oriental Orthodox Church, a Nestorian Church etc.etc. For a millenia this belief remained unchallenged and indeed in the East as opposed to the West it has never been seriously challenged as they never had to face Protestantism. Moreover, why would anyone want to challenge it?

Hans Urs Von Balthasar said in our day and age 'love alone is credible' and when I look upon the Lord's Body and Blood those words strike me like a hammer. What would God want with a person like me? A dirty sinner? God needs nothing, yet He created everything? Each of us lives at the most 120 years and barely anyone makes it that far, what is 120 years to God? I have more in common with the bacteria that inhabit my saliva than God has with me. He is transcendent, completely and absolutely and my existence is needless. I am a possible being He is a necessary being. There is no reason, no merit in my existing. God's infinity is not added to by the existence of man nor would it be taken away if man did not exist. For in God there is no potentiality, just actuality. Yet God condescends himself to create and not merely to create but to incarnate and not merely to incarnate to take on the nature of a servant but even unto death, death on a cross and not just unto death as a human. No, that would be extreme enough. For the transcendence of God to take on a true human nature is unfathomable and a true act of love that we will never comprehend. But God goes FURTHER. He then makes Himself into an inanimate object!

In his humility He took on the form of a slave in his abjection he has become the work of human hands. It is madness, sheer madness. That God who needs nothing and is not compelled by biology or pscyhology to show affection as animals like ourselves are does these things. It is nonsensical and from it you could see why the Countess of Feria used to just sit staring at the Body of Christ daily in awe. Madness, utter madness, the act of a being madly in love! In love, with us, with you and I. Look at what He does for us Dairy Girl, for you and I and everyone. For sinners. Our God whose Word never goes out from Him and returns fruitless, whose very WORD created the cosmos, makes himself into that which cannot even speak for you. So that as is written in John 6:56-57:

[quote]Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me.[/quote]

You are a Christian woman? Do these words not make your heart thunder within your chest? God has created you to become, as 1 Peter tells us, a partaker in the Divine Nature. Paul speaks of us inheriting the spirit of sonship putting on the image of Christ becoming one body through the one bread. God loves you so much and wants to be united to you so much that He is willing to even give you direct access to Him in the form of some human creation just to ensure your pariticpation in His life. Why do you want to resist it? Cant you see how much God loves you how much He desires you how much He freely and unconstrainedly chooses to want you with Him forever and ever?

Now we could argue about how the Jewish understanding of pascha which filters into the Mass means we have to believe in the Real prescence and we could argue about the Fathers and an assortment of other things and if thats the way this thread goes thats the way it goes. But to me that kind of debate entirely misses the point. This is not a question of whether Catholics and Orthodox are right and Protestants are not. This is a question of how much God loves all men and what He wants to give them totally and unreseverdly: Himself. This is about a gift that was given without charge to human beings thats the be all and end all of this debate. In the end this isnt about intellectual arguments regardless of how many there actually are, its about God's love for mankind and how completely gratitous it is.

In John 6:66 it reads "because of this many of his disciples turned back and no longer went about with him" and Jesus the following verse asks the disciples if they want to leave too. He's not backing down He's not altering His teaching He lays it out and He's willing even to let the 12 walk away. But Peter speaks up for them doesnt He? And today Peter is still speaking up for them? Peter still feeds the lambs, tends the sheep and feeds the sheep. Feeds them with the Bread of Life the body of Our Lord. In answer to the question: "Do you love me?" Once again it is the centrality of love that binds the gospel together.

Just look at the Blessed Sacrament for what it truly is and you will hear the voice of Christ speaking to you just as He spoke to Simon saying "Do you love me?" thats what its about Dairy Girl. Love. Pure unadulterated love. Just...

Just take it. Its from Him to you. Accept it.

[quote]For my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink[/quote]--Jn 6:55

Accept the gift

[CatholicAndFanatical]

nicely done Myles. Right on all points.

[quote]
Go into an Eastern Orthodox Church and ask them about the real presence, go into an Oriental Orthodox Church, a Nestorian Church etc.etc. For a millenia this belief remained unchallenged and indeed in the East as opposed to the West it has never been seriously challenged as they never had to face Protestantism. Moreover, why would anyone want to challenge it?
[/quote]

This one really got me. So, So right. Protestants think the Catholic Church made up this Real Presence stuff, however, they are the new kids on the block and this teaching has been around for 2000 years. The theory of symbolicism is a mere 400 years old.



[quote]
Hans Urs Von Balthasar said in our day and age 'love alone is credible' and when I look upon the Lord's Body and Blood those words strike me like a hammer. What would God want with a person like me? A dirty sinner? God needs nothing, yet He created everything? Each of us lives at the most 120 years and barely anyone makes it that far, what is 120 years to God? I have more in common with the bacteria that inhabit my saliva than God has with me. He is transcendent, completely and absolutely and my existence is needless. I am a possible being He is a necessary being. There is no reason, no merit in my existing. God's infinity is not added to by the existence of man nor would it be taken away if man did not exist. For in God there is no potentiality, just actuality. Yet God condescends himself to create and not merely to create but to incarnate and not merely to incarnate to take on the nature of a servant but even unto death, death on a cross and not just unto death as a human. No, that would be extreme enough. For the transcendence of God to take on a true human nature is unfathomable and a true act of love that we will never comprehend. But God goes FURTHER. He then makes Himself into an inanimate object!
[/quote]

beautiful. God is Awesome isnt He!

Thank you Lord for humbling Yourself in the Blessed Sacrament for me, a poor sinner.

[Seven77]

beautiful reflection. GOD [b]would[/b] do such a thing, wouldn't He!

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Bump for Dairygirl.

your thoughts please