early belief in the real presence

[dairygirl4u2c]

Here's my proposition:
Somebody who deems themselves very knowledgeable of early church beliefs (pre 300) state why it is they think the belief in the real presense, as taught by the Catholic Church today, was unanimous. Then, this same person must answer all my questions regarding the material they post.

The questions may or may not be relevant and/or copouts. Whatever the case, they will be exposed for what they really are and everyone can decide for themself.

[Mateo el Feo]

Here's my proposition:

We belong to the Catholic Church, not the "Catholic Church." Please refer to our Church as the Catholic Church.

Second, if you are hiding some questions ("this same person must answer all my questions..."), then don't play games. Just post your questions. There's no need for you to hid in the shadows. Come out into the light. Then, "everyone can decide for themselves."

Please, no copouts.

[Socrates]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='May 18 2005, 01:56 PM'] Here's my proposition:
Somebody who deems themselves very knowledgeable of early church beliefs (pre 300) state why it is they think the belief in the real presense, as taught by the Catholic Church today, was unanimous. Then, this same person must answer all my questions regarding the material they post.

The questions may or may not be relevant and/or copouts. Whatever the case, they will be exposed for what they really are and everyone can decide for themself. [/quote]
And what evidence do you have otherwise?

If the Church has always taught one way on a specific topic as far back as can be traced, the burden of proof is on the one who would say that the Church once taught differently.

And the official Church teaching (as taught by the Pope and the magisterium) is not necessarily "unaminous." There have always been heretics and dissenters.

So far you've given no evidence to support your case, so there can be no debate.

[dairygirl4u2c]

This is not a cop out. I want others to post their evidence so I can critique and ask questions of it. Unlike socrates illogically said, there can be a debate if someone else starts it as is the premise of my proposition.

I can post a bunch of quotes and ask questions if you guys insist on not going by my proposition, but I've done this in the past with this topic and have gotten no response or from one person that believers don't have to know all about the earlty church even with good questions as there was overwhelming evidence for the Catholic Church.

This approach one person to be on the spot and focuses it between two people instead of one person sort of acknowledging my point in a sea of copy and pastes of the same thing.



A couple other points to point out socrates' narrow attitude. Why must the burden of proof be on anyone other than the Catholic Church? Why must the assumption be that it's always taught one way? If you were to say, so far the evidence says that overwhelmingly it was believed, so the burden of proof is on otherwise, then you'd have a statement. But this is not what you said and continues to show your narrowness.

And i know it's more of a disclaimer. But if there were people who did not believe, then there were people who did not blieve as far as your heretics statement goes. Is what is popular what is right? This of course will get into examining the evidence, which is good. But I wanted to trade one generalization with another.

Edited May 18, 2005 by dairygirl4u2c

[Brother Adam]

Maybe it's the overwhelmingly derogatory attitude? The evidence of the patristic writings speak for themselves.

[Mateo el Feo]

Still can't get her to say the words "Catholic Church." Hmmm...

[cmotherofpirl]

Is there a reason what you cannot get our name right?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

If you don't believe it when Jesus says to drink his "blood" and eat his "body" in the Gospel of John, why would you believe the ECF's using the same language?

[Socrates]

These quotes are all from before 300 AD.


Ignatius of Antioch

"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Epistle to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

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Ignatius of Antioch


"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God...

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Epistle to the Smyrnaeans 6:2; 7:1 [A.D. 110]).


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Justin Martyr

"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined.

"For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66:1-20 [A.D. 148]).


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Irenaeus



"If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?" (Against Heresies 4:33-32 [A.D. 148]).


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Irenaeus


"He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies.

"When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life--flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?" (Against Heresies 5:2 [A.D. 148]).


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Clement of Alexandria


"'Eat my flesh,' [Jesus] says, 'and drink my blood.' The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients. He delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children" (Paidagogos 1:6;43;3 [A.D. 202]).



So where's your evidence to the contrary, Dairygirl?

[Archangel]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='May 18 2005, 01:42 PM']A couple other points to point out socrates' narrow attitude. Why must the burden of proof be on anyone other than the Catholic Church? Why must the assumption be that it's always taught one way? If you were to say, so far the evidence says that overwhelmingly it was believed, so the burden of proof is on otherwise, then you'd have a statement. But this is not what you said and continues to show your narrowness.[/quote]
This being a Catholic forum, we know what and why we believe in our Faith. If someone wishes to proselytize, shouldn't the burden of proof fall on them? -_-

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote]
Ignatius of Antioch
[/quote]

DairyGirl.

also know that Ignatius was a student of St John the Apostle. If Ignatius is wrong in ANY of his writings, so too was St. John the Apostle.

And Please, for the love of God. We are apart of the Holy Catholic Church, roman is just a 'Rite' in the Church. We have many Rites.

Good Grief its not rocket science..

[Socrates]

Bump for Dairygirl (See my Church Father's quotes)

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Another Bump

[Socrates]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 18 2005, 08:50 PM'] Is there a reason what you cannot get our name right? [/quote]
Don't think she's talking about the Catholic Church - she's talking about Royal Crown Cola!

[CatholicAndFanatical]

of course she could be saying that the Roman rite is wrong and the rest right..seems she always picks on us roman rite Catholics.