Defending NFP

[Dumb Ox]

Hi,

I'm a Catholic who's entered into dialogue with a Protestant about birth control methods. I'm clear on why non-NFP forms of birth control are problematic and am also aware that NFP can be misused, so that part of the discussion shouldn't be a problem. Here's where I need a hand from the more learned: What would be the proper response to the charge that NFP is always wrong because in, 1 Cor 7:5, St. Paul cites only prayer as a valid reason to abstain for "a time?" Does the koine Greek word which means "a time" hold a deeper meaning which would help bolster a defense? Any thoughts are appreciated.

Many thanks.

[Brother Adam]

You don't even have to look at the roots of the Greek to correctly understand this passage:

"Do not refuse one another except perhaps by agreement for a season, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, lest Satan tempt you through lack of self control."

Both the actual period of time of a 'season' is questionable as is their argument of "prayer alone". Much like "faith alone" your friend is adding words to the text that are not there. The passage implies that any period of abstience should be a time of prayer, spefically what the reason for abstience is, or if it is for prayer alone is not given. This is why it is so critical to have the Magisterium as the authentic interpretor of scripture. For instance, would a period of abstience then be wrong if the wife was gravely ill and any conjugal acts would worsen her state, if not lead to death? What if the wife has just given child-birth and is healing, is it wrong for the husband and wife to not come together? What if the husband and wife is desparetely poor, and any children they bring into the world will not be able to be supported with things like clothing and food? NFP can be used for the wrong reasons, but can be used for the right reasons as well.

You are welcome to join our NFP forum at www.flyfreeministries.org/forum/

[femme_du_noel]

It would be helpful to not take the verse in isolation. The very next verse says, "This I say by way of concession, however, not as a command. Indeed, I wish everyone to be as I am, but each has a particular gift from God, one of one kind and one of another."

Paul in this passage is not commanding us to not abstain. Also, I've read that some believe he was speaking to couples who wanted to be married and celibate and explaining that they couldn't do that.

Another way to look at it is that we abstain most of our lives. Probably all the people reading and posting are abstaining right now. Most people abstain most of the time. There are also a lot of circumstances that call for abstinence: illness, postpartum recovery, separation due to business trips or other reasons, injury, etc. If we aren't spending every moment either praying or having sex, are we sinning?

--Jessica

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Dumb Ox' date='May 19 2005, 04:33 PM'] Hi,

I'm a Catholic who's entered into dialogue with a Protestant about birth control methods.  I'm clear on why non-NFP forms of birth control are problematic and am also aware that NFP can be misused, so that part of the discussion shouldn't be a problem.  Here's where I need a hand from the more learned:  What would be the proper response to the charge that NFP is always wrong because in, 1 Cor 7:5, St. Paul cites only prayer as a valid reason to abstain for "a time?"  Does the koine Greek word which means "a time" hold a deeper meaning which would help bolster a defense?  Any thoughts are appreciated.

Many thanks. [/quote]
The issue is not the topic, the issue is that your friend does not listen to Christ's Church. You could end up going around and around with bible verses because they are the pope of their own faith.


[b]St Matt 18:17[/b] (Jesus said) If he refuses to listen to them, [b]tell the church[/b]. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.



[b]1 Tim 3:15[/b]
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is [b]the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth[/b].


[b]2 Timoty 3:14 [/b]
But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, [b]because you know from whom you learned it[/b],


How was Luther, Calvin, Knox, etc... faithful to what they have learned "because from whom they learned it"?

They weren't.

[b]John 14:16 [/b]
[color=red]And I will ask the Father, and [b]he will give you another Advocate to be with you always[/b],[/color]
[b]17 [/b][color=red]the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. [/color]
[b]18 [/b][color=red]I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. [/color]
...
[b]26 [/b][color=red]The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name--he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you. [/color]

Note: Christ says always, not "until the reformation".

[b]St. Matt 28:18[/b] Then Jesus approached and said to them, "[color=red]All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [/color]
[b]19 [/b][color=red]Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, [/color]
[b]20 [/b][color=red]teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age[/color]."

Note: Again Christ says "always".

[b]St. Matt 16:18[/b] "[color=red]And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock (Kephas) I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it[/color]."
[b]19 [/b][color=red]I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven[/color]."

Note: Never be overcome, not "until the reformation".

[b]John 1:42 [/b]
Then he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "[color=red]You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Kephas[/color]" (which is translated Peter).

[b]John 21:15[/b]
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "[color=red]Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?[/color]" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "[color=red]Feed my lambs[/color]."
[b]16 [/b]He then said to him a second time, "[color=red]Simon, son of John, do you love me?[/color]" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "[color=red]Tend my sheep[/color]."
[b]17 [/b]He said to him the third time, "[color=red]Simon, son of John, do you love me?[/color]" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "[color=red]Do you love me?[/color]" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "[color=red]Feed my sheep.[/color]"



Almost everything will come back to authority. As long as he thinks the bible is the authority, and as long as you argue as the bible is the authority, then you might not get anywhere.


[b]2 Thess 2:15 [/b]
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

[b]2 Tim 2:2 [/b]
And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.


If he is correct in his views, he can go back to the Early Church Father's writings before 400 AD and their views will look like his today.

When he goes to look, he will see that they were all Catholic.

He can buy them for $250 here:
[url="http://www.logos.com/products/details/518"]http://www.logos.com/products/details/518[/url]
[quote]The Early Church Fathers CD-ROM comes in two versions, Protestant and Catholic. Simply put, the difference is that the Protestant edition contains additional front matter written at a later date. There is no difference in the actual ECF text.[/quote]

Or read them for free here:

[url="http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/"]http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/[/url]


Ask him to be honest and who is really going by the Bible, the bible is clear that the Church has the authority and will be guided in all truth. The Church cannot be us because we disagree. The Church cannot be the collection of conflicting protestant religions. The Church can only be the Catholic Church. If the Church is us the people or a collection of protestant churches then how can we be guided in all truth when we all disagree on major and minor factors?


God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited May 20, 2005 by ironmonk

[Dumb Ox]

Thanks everyone! As a frequent Phatmass lurker, I knew I could count on some of the Debate Table regulars.

Ironmonk, I agree with you 100%. This (and every) issue ultimately comes down to authority. It will be difficult to get this person (a Protestant minister who I hardly know) to see that point but I guess Pentecost was a good reminder that nothing is impossible for the Spirit.

In your charity, please say a prayer for him, and me too.