Rapture

[scardella]

I was talking to a few prot friends last night, and the topic of "the rapture" came up. They casually said, "Oh yeah, it's Scriptural..." They mentioned something from Revelations, but I couldn't find it. The only thing that I could think they might use is

[quote]  "In (those) days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day that Noah entered the ark. They did not know until the flood came and carried them all away. So will it be (also) at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be out in the field; one will be taken, and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken, and one will be left.  Therefore, stay awake! For you do not know on which day your Lord will come. Be sure of this: if the master of the house had known the hour of night when the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and not let his house be broken into. So too, you also must be prepared, for at an hour you do not expect, the Son of Man will come."
-Mt 24:38-44 [/quote]

I didn't really know how to answer them offhand, and it wasn't a debate, and I wasn't in the mood for debating. However, I would like to have something to answer them with, should that come up again.

[DojoGrant]

Will Jesus Christ come again in the clouds to meet the faithful at the end of time? Yes.

Will he do so and secretly take Christians up and leave others to suffer X number of years of tribulation? Or set up an earthly kingdom in Jerusalem and reestablish animal sacrifices at the Temple? No.

The latter is the kind of stuff proposed by pre/post-millinialists.

[ironmonk]

These verses from St. Matt and St. Mark show that the rapture is misunderstood by those that think the Left Behind series rapture is real.


[b]St. Matt 24:14 [/b]
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world as a witness to all nations, 8 and then the end will come.
[b]15 [/b] "When you see the desolating abomination 10 spoken of through Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
[b]16 [/b]then those in Judea must flee to the mountains,
[b]17 [/b] a person on the housetop must not go down to get things out of his house,
[b]18 [/b]a person in the field must not return to get his cloak.
[b]19 [/b]Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days.
[b]20 [/b]Pray that your flight not be in winter or on the sabbath,
[b]21 [/b]for at that time there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will be.
[b]22 [/b]And if those days had not been shortened, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect they will be shortened.


[b]St. Mark 13:19[/b]
For those times will have tribulation such as has not been since the beginning of God's creation until now, nor ever will be.
[b]20 [/b]If the Lord had not shortened those days, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect whom he chose, he did shorten the days.



If the rapture, as many non-Catholics believe it to be, is not going to happen. If it was going to happen, then why would the days need to be shortened for the elect, least no one would be saved?



Also, what about the 144,000?

[b]Rev. 14:1 [/b]
Then I looked and there was the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.
...
[b]4 [/b]These are they who were not defiled with women; they are virgins and these are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been ransomed as the firstfruits of the human race for God and the Lamb.
[b]5 [/b]On their lips no deceit has been found; they are unblemished.



Priests.


Here is an article by Karl Keating: [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp[/url]



God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited June 3, 2005 by ironmonk

[scardella]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jun 3 2005, 03:15 PM']These verses from St. Matt and St. Mark show that the rapture is misunderstood by those that think the Left Behind series rapture is real.
[b]St. Matt 24:14 [/b]
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world as a witness to all nations, 8 and then the end will come.
[b]15 [/b] "When you see the desolating abomination 10 spoken of through Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
[b]16 [/b]then those in Judea must flee to the mountains,
[b]17 [/b] a person on the housetop must not go down to get things out of his house,
[b]18 [/b]a person in the field must not return to get his cloak.
[b]19 [/b]Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days.
[b]20 [/b]Pray that your flight not be in winter or on the sabbath,
[b]21 [/b]for at that time there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will be.
[b]22 [/b]And if those days had not been shortened, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect they will be shortened.
[b]St. Mark 13:19[/b]
For those times will have tribulation such as has not been since the beginning of God's creation until now, nor ever will be.
[b]20 [/b]If the Lord had not shortened those days, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect whom he chose, he did shorten the days.
If the rapture, as many non-Catholics believe it to be, is not going to happen. If it was going to happen, then why would the days need to be shortened for the elect, least no one would be saved?
Also, what about the 144,000?

[b]Rev. 14:1 [/b]
Then I looked and there was the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.
...
[b]4 [/b]These are they who were not defiled with women; they are virgins and these are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been ransomed as the firstfruits of the human race for God and the Lamb.
[b]5 [/b]On their lips no deceit has been found; they are unblemished.
Priests.
Here is an article by Karl Keating: [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp[/url]
God Bless,
ironmonk
[right][snapback]606571[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I understand the "shortened" argument, but not the 144,000 argument. And, to play devil's advocate, it would seem that the Mt. quote (go from Mt 24:12-24:42) would support the rapture. You've obviously got the statements about people being taken away or disappearing, per the "rapture" theory. Now, what if the shortened thing is talking about the people who were left behind? It seems a plausible argument. Imagine that the elect are interceeding for the people who are left behind, a la Abraham interceeding for Sodom and Gomorrah: "If there are only xx righteous peole, will you spare the city?"

Edited June 9, 2005 by scardella

[applebeez]

[quote name='scardella' date='Jun 3 2005, 02:42 PM']"In (those) days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day that Noah entered the ark. They did not know until the flood came and carried them all away. [b]So will it be (also) at the coming of the Son of Man[/b]. Two men will be out in the field; one will be taken, and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken, and one will be left.  Therefore, stay awake! For you do not know on which day your Lord will come. Be sure of this: if the master of the house had known the hour of night when the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and not let his house be broken into. So too, you also must be prepared, for at an hour you do not expect, the Son of Man will come."
-Mt 24:38-44 [/quote]

Whether you realize it or not, that passage actually refutes the rapture.

Who is the one being saved in Noah's day? Noah and his family. They were 'left behind' because God's wrath didn't come upon them.

Who is being taken away in Noah's day? The heathen, because the flood took them away.

Likewise, Jesus declares, "So will it be (also) at the coming of the Son of Man"

In other words, those who are left behind are God's people. They are saved by his grace.

Those who are taken away are the heathen.

That's what Jesus is telling us. I'd recommend re-reading it.

It's very clear, yet easily misread.

-Jason