Diocesan Jurisdiction

[God Conquers]

Ok, there was an article in the Ottawa Citizen today, much like [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=34441"]thesselonian's in Open Mic[/url]

It claims that these invalid and ilicit (although they claim only ilicit... I'm not sure how but that's a different story) ordinations are taking place in "international waters" on rivers between countries in both Europe and North America. They say that this way there is no Diocesan jurisdiction, so the events can't be stopped.

This doesn't make sense to me.

Why would the limits of a diocese stop at the water, or even in this case at the border of a country?

A bishop holds spiritual dominion, not temporal or political (although in theory they could have all three) why wouldn't that spiritual jurisdiction extend into any and all water in the area?

Can you say mass on a boat? I thought so. If someone could clarify this that would be great.

[CatholicCid]

[quote]The location for the ceremony was chosen because organizers considered it to be international waters between the United States and Canada where no diocese has juridiction and thus cannot interfere.[/quote]

Notice that "the organizers considered it"... Though, legally, I suppose a diocese would end on land, not going into waters...

[cmotherofpirl]

The Holy Father's jurusdiction is universal.

[Cam42]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Jun 9 2005, 12:14 AM']Ok, there was an article in the Ottawa Citizen today, much like [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=34441"]thesselonian's in Open Mic[/url]

It claims that these invalid and ilicit (although they claim only ilicit... I'm not sure how but that's a different story) ordinations are taking place in "international waters" on rivers between countries in both Europe and North America. They say that this way there is no Diocesan jurisdiction, so the events can't be stopped.

This doesn't make sense to me.

Why would the limits of a diocese stop at the water, or even in this case at the border of a country?

A bishop holds spiritual dominion, not temporal or political (although in theory they could have all three) why wouldn't that spiritual jurisdiction extend into any and all water in the area?

Can you say mass on a boat? I thought so. If someone could clarify this that would be great.
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[/quote]

A diocese is a geographic area. Therefore, a bishop's jurisdiction extends to the geographic border of that area. This means that it would extend to the land underneath the water, just as state lines extend into bodies of water.

One cannot say Mass on a boat, unless there is a duly consecrated space on said boat or the local ordinary gives an indult to celebrate Mass there. One cannot arbitrarily do this. However, ordinations must be performed in a church, so this is really a moot point.

I responded to this issue as well on Open Mic, take a look.

Cam

[Good Friday]

Ah, where to start...

First, the article you're referring to in Open Mic presents ordinations which are, without question, invalid. Even if women could be validly ordained -- which they cannot -- the ordination of the so-called "women bishops" is dubious at best, and it's unlikely that they were even ordained by a bishop with valid holy orders. But of course this doesn't matter, because women [i]cannot[/i] be ordained. All such ordinations are invalid as well as illicit. So the subsequent ordination of women by women is, shall we say, twice as invalid. The women bishops do not have the sacrament of holy orders in order to ordain, and the women candidates cannot receive the sacrament of holy orders. Basically, what they are doing is pretending that the sacrament of holy orders is being dispensed, which is sacrilegious and blasphemous.

But, to your question of ordaining or celebrating Mass on international waters.

I don't see why Mass could not be celebrated on international waters, but this could only be done with the permission of one's ordinary (diocesan bishop) or religious superior. Trying to go to international waters in order to get around the bishop's authority is absurd; the priestly faculties are given by the bishop, and they cannot be exercised apart from the bishop. All Masses, all sacraments, are celebrated in union with the local ordinary. Any Mass or sacrament that is celebrated out of communion with the local ordinary, or actively trying to work around him, is simply not Catholic.

But, as cmotherofpirl said, the Holy See has universal jurisdiction over the entire Catholic Church -- including, one would suppose, international waters. Thus, no matter how these women try to paint this, they are still violating Church jurisdiction and these "ordinations" are still both invalid and illicit.