What does God see when he looks at the Church?

[theculturewarrior]

All of my Catholic life, I saw division, and I was scandalized by it. It is a scandal! And I knew that Jesus prayed that we would be one, and that tempted me to doubt, because it didn't look like it happened. I wonder, though, what God sees when he looks at the Church. I know that the souls of non-Catholics are in danger, but there is danger everywhere, and just looking at my own life, I see there is danger here as well. [i]Somebody[/i] wants us all dead.

And I know also, that though it is better to taste and see him, Jesus is not bound to the Sacraments. We are. And I think of the Centurion's Faith, that pleased Jesus so much. He only said the word, and his servant was healed. And I wonder, if we can receive graces from gazing at the Eucharist, why can't a protestant receive graces from praising and meditating upon the Blood Jesus shed on the Cross? It is the same! And I wonder if Protestants are united to the Church, however imperfectly, by faith in the Blood of Jesus, and the Body of His Church?

And then I see, as a student of history, that most divisions in the Catholic Church were started by sinful Catholics. We were all Catholic at one point in history. What happened? I could rally against Martin Luther, or I could apologize for the Schism, but I think a more expedient question for me is who have I scandalized, and who am I scandalizing now? I don't know, maybe that's a question that every Catholic should ask. Saint Paul exhorted us to regard the consciences of weaker Christians, and it seems that Protestants guard their consciences so doggedly, because they know their communion is one of Spirit, of Faith Alone in Jesus Christ. And I wonder what good does it do to try to persuade them? All my life I've only persuaded people to the contrary.

We see the divisions, but I wonder if God sees the unity. I know he can work with what he has, Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox, because he is working with me. And when I see a Protestant or an Orthodox, I will think, "All that I am, and all that I have is yours." I will be saying it to Jesus.

[journeyman]

an interesting question TCW . . . and an insightful posting

[Brother Adam]

What does He see? The thought makes me tremble. -_-

[Thy Geekdom Come]

A spotless bride which without Him would be hideous, wounded, and covered in malignant sores.

Her members, however, are such, and yet, still beautiful.

[Apotheoun]

What does God see when He looks at the Church?

The Father sees His Son, while the Son sees His bride, and the Holy Spirit sees the body that He animates.

[Fixxxer]

he sees little ants, that what we look like since we are so small

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 12 2005, 11:05 PM']What does God see when He looks at the Church?

The Father sees His Son, while the Son sees His bride, and the Holy Spirit sees the body that He animates.
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That put a smile on my face. Thanks. I have a question though...

God the Father is Our Father, and Mary is His daughter, and Jesus is His Son. And God the Son is our brother, friend and redeemer, and Mary is Our Mother, His Mother and our Mother. And she is the Bride of the Holy Spirit. But we are not the Bride of the Holy Spirit, we are the Bride of Christ. What are we in relation to the Holy Spirit?

Can you sort this mess out for me? I'm confused. I need a flow chart.

[philothea]

I think you are bumping into the inadequacies of human language and temporal relationships.

I'm sure it all works out.

[StMichael]

Do not forget that Jesus saw all the sins of the past and the future in the Garden.

[theculturewarrior]

That's interesting. I didn't know that!

But I remember also that Jesus told His disciples to love one another as He loves them, and He said that on Holy Thursday, if I recall correctly, knowing very well that He was going to suffer so much. And He died on the Cross, showing the Apostles how He loved them, and how we are called to love. And though he saw our sins, He did not come to condemn us, but to forgive us, and it pleases Him to forget the sins for which we have been absolved, if we are contrite and resolved to amend our lives.

No caveats here. Everybody probably already knows this stuff. I'm just thinking of how good God is.

[Snowcatpa]

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[quote]All of my Catholic life, I saw division, and I was scandalized by it. It is a scandal! And I knew that Jesus prayed that we would be one, and that tempted me to doubt, because it didn't look like it happened. I wonder, though, what God sees when he looks at the Church...Somebody wants us all dead.[/quote]

[quote]And I know also, that though it is better to taste and see him, Jesus is not bound to the Sacraments. We are. [/quote]

That is REALLY interesting. I’ve thought about that too. The sacraments are amazing and essential for coming to a deeper understanding of God, but I think too sometimes about the holiness of the fragments of our everyday life. As one woman wrote, “If I am to carry Christ home with me from the altar, I am afraid he will have to come to the kitchen”. That made me smile

[quote] I wonder, if we can receive graces from gazing at the Eucharist, why can't a protestant receive graces from praising and meditating upon the Blood Jesus shed on the Cross? It is the same! [/quote]

Is it because the Eucharist, because it is the actual body and blood of Christ, is so far beyond just the abstract meditation on his suffering because you are recognizably meditating on that suffering in his presence himself? I mean, meditation upon His suffering is phenomenal, but alone, it’s not the same thing as recognizing the physical connection of Jesus to us and our world. The Eucharist as the cornerstone of our faith?

[quote]And I wonder if Protestants are united to the Church, however imperfectly, by faith in the Blood of Jesus, and the Body of His Church? [quote]

The Catechism says so!

[quote]838: … "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church…" [/quote]

They have part of the truth right? And in that they share with us which is what you’re recognizing and celebrating but only Catholicism has the whole truth because it is the Church instituted by Christ himself, guided by the Holy Spirit with the love of God.

[quote]And then I see, as a student of history, that most divisions in the Catholic Church were started by sinful Catholics. We were all Catholic at one point in history. What happened? [/quote]

Were we really though? I don't think we ever were. I think it's that ideal that we all think was there but never really was and won't be until the end of time. Even in the early Church, there were other people preaching about Jesus and other "prophets and messiahs", and just a whole bunch of things. Did every Christian believe the core tenets of Catholic faith right from the beginning? I don't know...I'm not too up in early Church history but I'm sure some phatmassers could help me out with that

[quote] I could rally against Martin Luther, or I could apologize for the Schism, but I think a more expedient question for me is who have I scandalized, and who am I scandalizing now? I don't know, maybe that's a question that every Catholic should ask. [/quote}-

Wow...what do you mean? Can you explain?

[quote] And I wonder what good does it do to try to persuade them? All my life I've only persuaded people to the contrary.

[quote] We see the divisions, but I wonder if God sees the unity. I know he can work with what he has, Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox, because he is working with me. And when I see a Protestant or an Orthodox, I will think, "All that I am, and all that I have is yours." I will be saying it to Jesus.[/quote]

Right on. The way that last part was phrased made me think too. It reminded me, hey, he’s not just working with what he has, he intentionally made us as we are, in HIS image, and that’s amazing! That makes us so much more than just something he has to work with…he wanted us to be able to be good and have the choice to follow him, and that’s so amazing

I think he sees the unity because he sees us all created as His children… we are all one people, recognizing (from the catechism)

[quote]that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life. [quote]

And that is beautiful…simply beautiful.

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[theculturewarrior]

That's an excellent post, Snowcapta! Thanks. I'll come back to your question. Right now I have to study.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

how should we regard non-catholic christians?

i have always thought of them as false christians

and have regared their theology as bankrupt

and the catholic church's Dogma as superior

is this correct?

[theculturewarrior]

:shame:

[MilesChristi]

[quote]i have always thought of them as false christians [/quote]

Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. [b][i]Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."[/b][/i] "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."

---CCC 1271

[Aloysius]

Leo XIII called them Christians too, not just the CCC

oh, G.K. Chesterton has an awesome little quote here:
[quote] Protestants are Catholics gone wrong; that is what is really meant by saying they are Christians. Sometimes they have gone very wrong; but not often have they gone right ahead with their own particular wrong. Thus a Calvinist is a Catholic obsessed with the Catholic idea of the sovereignty of God. But when he makes it mean that God wishes particular people to be damned, we may say with all restraint that he has become a rather morbid Catholic. In point of fact he is a diseased Catholic; and the disease left to itself would be death or madness. But, as a matter of fact, the disease did not last long, and is itself now practically dead. But every step he takes back towards humanity is a step back towards Catholicism. Thus a Quaker is a, Catholic obsessed with the Catholic idea of gentle simplicity and truth. But when he made it mean that it is a lie to say "you" and an act of idolatry to take off your hat to a lady, it is not too much to say that whether or not he had a hat off, he certainly had a tile loose. But as a matter of fact he himself found it necessary to dispense with the eccentricity (and the hat) and to leave the straight road that would have led him to a lunatic asylum. Only every step he takes back towards common sense is a step back towards Catholicism. In so far as he was right he was a Catholic; and in so far as he was wrong he has not himself been able to remain a Protestant.
[/quote]

[let_go_let_God]

God sees all of His children as the beautiful princes and princesses we are. For we are princes and princesses for our Father is the King of Kings and our Mother the Queen of the Angels.

God bless-
LGLG

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote][b]8. This being so, it is clear that the Apostolic See cannot on any terms take part in their assemblies, nor is it anyway lawful for Catholics either to support or to work for such enterprises; for if they do so they will be giving countenance to a false Christianity, quite alien to the one Church of Christ. Shall We suffer, what would indeed be iniquitous, the truth, and a truth divinely revealed, to be made a subject for compromise?[/b][/quote]

Mortalium animos

- Pope Pius XI

Edited July 5, 2005 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jul 5 2005, 06:47 PM']Mortalium animos

- Pope Pius XI
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:shame:

That was before Lumen Gentium. The Church wasn't born in the 60's, but it didn't stop being the Church in the 60's either.

:shame:

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

the enycial is papal infallibility no?

Edited July 6, 2005 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus