Are lturgical documents prohibitive

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jun 25 2005, 05:57 AM']The nature of the Eucharist is unchanging.  Therefore our reverence of it should also be unchanging.  Yet the USCCB states that standing is the norm for the US.  If this becomes the accepted norm universally, and the nature of the Eucharist cannot change, were the original people who stood prior to the adaptation being irreverent?
[right][snapback]622777[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
The problem with many of the adaptations presently being made in the liturgy of the Roman Rite is that they often have their source in a historicist attempt to reconstruct some past version of the Mass of the Roman Church. This kind of activity is detrimental to the Church's life, because it is an artificial and scholarly attempt to recreate some kind of idealized liturgy of the past.

Moreover, this type of historical reconstruction causes a rupture within the liturgical tradition of the Roman Rite, because it simply encourages the abandonment, in less than a generation, of particular forms of worship that have existed uninterruptedly for centuries, replacing them with newer forms of worship that are supposedly more "historically accurate" reflections of the faith under the pretext of scholarly research.

[Jaime]

[quote]Consequently, even when a dogmatic definition of the Extraordinary Magisterium, or a definitive teaching through a non-defining act of the Ordinary Magisterium, is made, the dogmatic definition or definitive teaching in question is not a "new" reality; instead, it is simply the expression of the already existing faith of the Church through a defining or non-defining act of the Magisterium.[/quote]

Then you would define the organ's role in Church life as tradition and not Tradition?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jun 25 2005, 08:21 AM']Then you would define the organ's role in Church life as tradition and not Tradition?
[right][snapback]622879[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
By "organ" do you mean the Magisterium?

The Magisterium itself is not a "tradition," because Christ instituted it, but is an element of Tradition. That being said, the guidance of the Pastors is subject to the Tradition that they are empowered to protect, but not to change.

[Jaime]

No I mean organ has having pride of place within the Church

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jun 25 2005, 08:32 AM']No I mean organ has having pride of place within the Church
[right][snapback]622889[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
That musical instrument is an ecclesiastical tradition, as such it is not a part of the Tradition. In fact, in the Byzantine Church the use of any musical instrument (other than the human voice) is forbidden.

[Apotheoun]

The example you've given actually helps to illustrate my point.

As I see it, you are confusing customs of a particular liturgical rite with the Tradition. If the use of a particular musical instrument is a part of the Tradition of the Church, it follows that every rite of the Church would be required to use it in the Divine Liturgy. Clearly then, traditions do not give rise to Tradition.

[Cam42]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jun 25 2005, 10:47 AM']BTW the GIRM is only incorrect on how to handle folks who kneel.  It is not incorrect that standing is allowed in the US.
[right][snapback]622862[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


Nope...because there is no major departure from the true spirit of what the universal GIRM is after......the issue bring is.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jun 25 2005, 10:49 AM']Nope...because there is no major departure from the true spirit of what the universal GIRM is after......the issue bring is.
[right][snapback]622901[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
I have no idea what you just said

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jun 25 2005, 08:56 AM'][quote name='Cam42' date='Jun 25 2005, 10:49 AM']Nope...because there is no major departure from the true spirit of what the universal GIRM is after......the issue bring is.[/quote]
I have no idea what you just said
[right][snapback]622910[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
It is a somewhat confusing sentence.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jun 25 2005, 11:49 AM']Nope...because there is no major departure from the true spirit of what the universal GIRM is after......the issue bring is.
[right][snapback]622901[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

There is no major departure from the true spirit of what the universal GIRM is after, when engaging in kneeling for the entire Canon.

The issue that you bring to the table about Holy Communion is. It is a major departure from the tradition of kneeling and showing due reverence to the Blessed Sacrament, as viewed by the Latin Church.

While the indult is granted, it most certainly is not the norm. Show me the corresponding support for your position in the universal GIRM, as I did for journeyman on the issue of kneeling for the entire Canon, then show me where the same support is given by Cardinal Estevez and Mons. Marini.

[Jaime]

Sometimes Camster likes to speak with a Yoda accent

[Jaime]

[quote]Show me the corresponding support for your position in the universal GIRM, as I did for journeyman on the issue of kneeling for the entire Canon, then show me where the same support is given by Cardinal Estevez and Mons. Marini.[/quote]

Well at least its grammatical...

Where did I get my quote Camster? Did I make it up? Did I pull it off a heterodox site? NO It was from the GIRM.

What's the issue here?

[Cam42]

Just to help you out a bit, Himester:

[quote name='GIRM #117 (CDW)']He then takes the paten or a ciborium and goes to the communicants. If communion is given only under the form of bread, he raises the eucharistic bread slightly and shows it to each one, saying: "The body of Christ."

The communicants reply: "Amen" and, holding the communion plate under their chin, receive the sacrament.[/quote]

Notice that the priest goes to the communicant? That would assume that the priest is moving, as in the case of walking along the communion rail and the communicant is stationary, as in the case of kneeling at the communion rail.

There is no mention of approaching the priest in procession, there is no mention of a posture other than the traditional posture of kneeling.

Now, let's see what the USCCB says:

[quote name='GIRM #160 (USCCB)']The priest then takes the paten or ciborium and goes to the communicants, who, as a rule, approach in a procession.

The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the Sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister. The consecrated host may be received either on the tongue or in the hand, at the discretion of each communicant. When Holy Communion is received under both kinds, the sign of reverence is also made before receiving the Precious Blood.[/quote]

That is a huge departure from the norm. And it is precisely that departure that warranted the statement from Cardinal Estevez, as stated above, regarding #160, specifically.

The closest to the original that the USCCB's version has is #161:
[quote name='GIRM #161 (USCCB)']If Communion is given only under the species of bread, the priest raises the host slightly and shows it to each, saying, Corpus Christi (The Body of Christ). The communicant replies, Amen, and receives the Sacrament either on the tongue or, where this is allowed and if the communicant so chooses, in the hand. As soon as the communicant receives the host, he or she consumes it entirely.

If, however, Communion is given under both kinds, the rite prescribed in nos. 284-287 is followed.[/quote]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jun 25 2005, 09:08 AM']While the indult is granted, it most certainly is not the norm. 
[right][snapback]622918[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
I agree, an indult does not replace a universal norm, unless the Supreme Authority of the Church determines otherwise.

[Cam42]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jun 25 2005, 12:09 PM']Sometimes Camster likes to speak  with a Yoda accent
[right][snapback]622919[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


What, I've only seen Ep. III 7 times now.....perhaps like Yoda, I have become, hmmmmmmm?