Social Justice

[crusader1234]

So, Social Justice. I've been getting fairly confused on these boards about what peoples priorities are. It seems that people are very caught up in liturgical abuses, which is all well and good, but the concern is out of proportion with concern for issues like social justice. I'm not saying that people shouldn't care about liturgical abuses, but I'm just wondering why people that seem so into that one area of their faith seem to completely ignore everything from Rerum Novarum and other aspects of Catholic Social Teaching. Why aren't people complaining about Wal Mart, for example? Wal Mart doesn't let people form unions and it also doesn't provide a 'just wage' as defined by Catholic Social Teaching'. Or how about sex trade overseas? I find it hard to believe that the trafficking of prepubescent girls for sex and the general abuse of women is an issue that should enrage Catholics any less than liturgical abuses. Am I the only person thats noticed this on the boards?

[Aloysius]

there is currently a thread about Walmart... I believe it's entitled "the job from hell"

anyway, there is not a non-connection here... the way we do things in mass affects the way we worship affects the way we beleive affects the way we act affects what we do for social justice

and my thread about Chesterbel Enterprises tend to get ignored... but it's all about promoted micro-enterprises and small businesses to bring about wide distribution of ownership and property... that's social justice for ya. why don't you help me out with that?

[Seven77]

social justice is essential... Jesus in the Eucharist sets us on fire and Love impels us. Bl. Mother Teresa says if we do not recognize Jesus truly present in the Blessed Sacrament we will not be able to see Him in our neighbor. now, if Jesus is disrespected at the altar..

[Socrates]

Worship of God comes first in our lives (and, of course is by no means exclusive of love of neighbor or social justice).

However, one mustn't assume that because someone is posting about the liturgy or any other issues, means he is ignoring "social justice."
And remember, we may have different ideas of the best means achieving true social justice - not all of us see more socialist government as the solution to all problems.

And I find it ironic that liberals here start howling whenever some "right-winger" starts calling for boycotts or putting other economic pressure on big corporations for supporting immorality.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Then Judas the Iscariot, one (of) his disciples, and the one who would betray him, said, "Why was this oil not sold for three hundred days' wages and given to the poor?" He said this not because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief and held the money bag and used to steal the contributions. So Jesus said, "Leave her alone. Let her keep this for the day of my burial. You always have the poor with you, but you do not always have me." -John 12:4-8

Only when we put Christ in the first priority, even in the liturgy (which is no small thing, despite the fact that most Catholics don't think of it as more than an obligation), will we even stand a chance at really being able to help people with social justice. "If you want justice, work for peace" (Pope John Paul the Great), and I add, "if you want peace, serve God above all in all."

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Fr. Benedict Groeschel once told the story of Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen as he visited the house of a priest.

"The Church has too much money," whined the priest, "and she spends it on foolish luxuries for churches and vestments and chalices."

The good bishop debated politely but made no progress. Finally, he took the priest aside after Mass and looked him in the eyes, "how long, Father," he asked, "have you been stealing from the collection basket?"

The priest broke down and told him everything. He had blamed the Church for extravagance because he needed to convince himself that he wasn't really *that bad* in the whole scheme of things.

[Guest Eremite]

Catholic social teaching has no definition of a "just wage". It only requires that one be paid. What constitutes a "just wage" is a prudential decision.

[crusader1234]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 17 2005, 08:31 PM']Catholic social teaching has no definition of a "just wage". It only requires that one be paid. What constitutes a "just wage" is a prudential decision.
[right][snapback]614904[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I'm going with what I read in my Religion textbook which received Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat which was taught to us by a Priest which has spent his entire life studying social justice. A 'just wage' according to my text book is enough to support a family.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Jun 17 2005, 09:36 PM']I'm going with what I read in my Religion textbook which received Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat which was taught to us by a Priest which has spent his entire life studying social justice.  A 'just wage' according to my text book is enough to support a family.
[right][snapback]614912[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

A family of what size?

I make more than the minimum wage and it's not even close to enough just for me, let alone a family.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Jun 17 2005, 09:36 PM']I'm going with what I read in my Religion textbook which received Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat which was taught to us by a Priest which has spent his entire life studying social justice.  A 'just wage' according to my text book is enough to support a family.
[right][snapback]614912[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
What textbook is that, by the way? I believe ours was titled [u]Living Justice and Peace[/u].

[crusader1234]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jun 17 2005, 08:14 PM']Worship of God comes first in our lives (and, of course is by no means exclusive of love of neighbor or social justice).

However, one mustn't assume that because someone is posting about the liturgy or any other issues, means he is ignoring "social justice." 
And remember, we may have different ideas of the best means achieving true social justice - not all of us see more socialist government as the solution to all problems.

And I find it ironic that liberals here start howling whenever some "right-winger" starts calling for boycotts or putting other economic pressure on big corporations for supporting immorality.
[/quote]

I'm not saying that people posting about the liturgy are ignoring social justice. I clearly said that that was well and good. I'm simply stating that this board seems to post barely anything about social justice. And no, I'm not saying Socialism is the answer. Throwing around little digs doesn't change the fact that there are tons of encyclicals out there about social justice that make it clear that social justice is important.

So yes, liturgical perfection is important, but its not the only thing we as Catholics are supposed to care about.

And as for corporate boycotts, I'm not sure if you were trying to insult me but I've never howled about it. I'm pretty sure I've called for boycotts myself of things like blood diamonds from Africa. The only time I've ever argued against somebody about a morality boycott was when I said that the company had most likely considered the economic benefits/losses which is hardly a howl.

[quote name='Raphael' date='Jun 17 2005, 08:25 PM']Only when we put Christ in the first priority, even in the liturgy (which is no small thing, despite the fact that most Catholics don't think of it as more than an obligation), will we even stand a chance at really being able to help people with social justice. "If you want justice, work for peace" (Pope John Paul the Great), and I add, "if you want peace, serve God above all in all."[/quote]

Serving Social Justice is one of the hugest duties we have when we put Christ as our first priority in my opinion... and apparently its important enough for Popes to write numerous encyclicals about it. So, yknow, I'd say that loving Christ is tantamount to promoting social justice.

[crusader1234]

[quote name='thedude' date='Jun 17 2005, 08:50 PM']What textbook is that, by the way?  I believe ours was titled [u]Living Justice and Peace[/u].
[right][snapback]614922[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Word, same here.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Jun 17 2005, 05:05 PM']  Am I the only person thats noticed this on the boards?
[right][snapback]614818[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

[mulls]

well not being catholic and not being into the liturgy thing, this isn't really my thing to comment on, but I will anyways...

whatever affects your view of God, be it theological views, personal relationship, or hersey that you fall into, will ultimately affect your broad worldview.

so my stance would be to make sure your view of God is correct as it pertains to liturgy in this case, and once it is realized who God is, what His heart is, and how He operates, affairs that need changing by His people will makes themselves known to the people God has gifted or appointed to do those things.


for whatever that's worth

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I'm into social justice, but I am quite in general so you won't see me talking about it much. Actually, my mom was my only obstacle to going on a service trip to Guatamala this summer.
My observations of unions in the US, however, have turned me against them. I believe that the Church's support for unions is taken out of context and wrongfully applied to developed nations like the United States where they are unecessary. I think unions are good in places where workers are truely exploited, such as China. I also don't get the anti-Wal-Mart movement. Wal-Mart has been a positive force in my town, they even give money to the local parish. From what I understand, the employees couldn't care less about a union, it seems to be people who [i]don't[/i] work at Wal-Mart that are upset. Most of their employees are part-time anyway. With the service sector in these parts the way it is, they could easily find another similar job if they don't like it.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]A 'just wage' according to my text book is enough to support a family. [/quote]

Yes, a "just wage" is also referred to as a "living wage". Nevertheless, what actually constitutes a "living wage" is a prudential judgement. The Church admonishes us on the general necessity of a living wage. It is up to us to decide, based on the social and economic context of our own society, what exactly this will mean in concrete terms.

Catholic spirituality has legitimate diversity. Some people and groups have a heavy focus on social care. Their apostolate is to work extensively in these areas. Other people and groups have a heavy focus on theological/ecclesiastical care. Those who focus on social care do not ignore theology and the Church, by any means. But they give a special witness. Ditto with other groups. I'd imagine that most people on Phatmass have no yet ventured into social care in an extensive manner. The Liturgy and the faith are what young people encounter on a personal, daily level. The corporal works of mercy have always been a universal standard of reference for all Catholics, as have the spiritual works of mercy. Mother Teresa and Thomas Aquinas were both Saints; but they had radically different vocations.

But, I think it's good that you remind us of the need for social care. I'm not poor, and so poverty is not on my mind every day. If it were, I imagine I would have particular affection for poverty apostolates. But no matter our particular emphases, all Catholics should try to live a balanced life of Faith, Hope, and Charity.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Jun 17 2005, 09:56 PM']Word, same here.
[right][snapback]614931[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
It was a decent book, I didn't have any problems with it. I thought it could have been more "to-the-point" maybe. I don't like the publisher though, St. Mary's Press. They produced our garbage Bible textbooks from freshman and sophomore year ([u]Jesus of History, Christ of Faith[/u] & [u]Written on Our Hearts[/u]).

Edited June 18, 2005 by thedude

[Socrates]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Jun 17 2005, 08:55 PM']And as for corporate boycotts, I'm not sure if you were trying to insult me but I've never howled about it.  I'm pretty sure I've called for boycotts myself of things like blood diamonds from Africa.  The only time I've ever argued against somebody about a morality boycott was when I said that the company had most likely considered the economic benefits/losses  which is hardly a howl.
[right][snapback]614928[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

My remarks about "howling about corporate boycotts" did not refer to you.

Maybe I was being a bit unfair, as I don't recall specifically the people complaining about the boycotts calling specifically for more attention to economic justice (however, some were generally criticical of "conservatism").

Peace

Edited June 18, 2005 by Socrates

[Aloysius]

wage wage wage... if there must be a wage it ought to be enough for one person to support his entire family. but minimum wage shouldn't be where any bulk of jobs should exist. should the minimum wage set by the government necessarily be a living wage? not necessarily... I really don't know. I can't think within the socialist or capitalist systems... I think people should have the oppurtunity not just to have this "living wage" but to own their own means of production. that's ultimately what Rerum Novarum is about... and social justice is ultimately about the restoration of Christendom. anything less is compromise with modernity... which is all well and good to help people survive day by day i guess

[crusader1234]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 17 2005, 09:04 PM']Yes, a "just wage" is also referred to as a "living wage". Nevertheless, what actually constitutes a "living wage" is a prudential judgement. The Church admonishes us on the general necessity of a living wage. It is up to us to decide, based on the social and economic context of our own society, what exactly this will mean in concrete terms.

Catholic spirituality has legitimate diversity. Some people and groups have a heavy focus on social care. Their apostolate is to work extensively in these areas. Other people and groups have a heavy focus on theological/ecclesiastical care. Those who focus on social care do not ignore theology and the Church, by any means. But they give a special witness. Ditto with other groups. I'd imagine that most people on Phatmass have no yet ventured into social care in an extensive manner. The Liturgy and the faith are what young people encounter on a personal, daily level. The corporal works of mercy have always been a universal standard of reference for all Catholics, as have the spiritual works of mercy. Mother Teresa and Thomas Aquinas were both Saints; but they had radically different vocations.

But, I think it's good that you remind us of the need for social care. I'm not poor, and so poverty is not on my mind every day. If it were, I  imagine I would have particular affection for poverty apostolates. But no matter our particular emphases, all Catholics should try to live a balanced life of Faith, Hope, and Charity.
[/quote]

Thank you, I think you've understood what I'm saying. While I completely aknowledge that some people are called to serve Christ by making sure that Mass is carried out properly, I think that there is a huge number of people out there that are ignoring their call to show love to eachother. And you know, the Missionaries of Charity spend almost all their time working with the sick and poor, but that doesn't change the fact that almost [b]all[/b] Nuns do some sort of community service albeit to lesser degrees. Not that many Phatmassers seem to aknowledge this call to serve those in need. I'm not poor by a long shot, but I've been educated by Jesuits (one of which actually worked with Mother Theresa in India) and thanks to them I'm aware of the issues and my responsibilities - and I think more light needs to be brought to this area on Phatmass. I thank Phatmass to no end for helping me understand my faith in a lot of areas regarding sin, Sacraments, Marian devotion, liturgical stuff, etc...and I think its time Phatmass also looked at how its members can serve Christ in serving others.