Swim wear

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Jun 19 2005, 08:20 AM']I don't think the Church would have allowed Adam to be OBVIOUSLY naked in the Sistine chapel if it didn't have faith in how God made us and faith in Grace, Patience, and Forgiveness.
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The Church at the time was in the Rennaissance and the Popes weren't exactly the best people to look towards. The reason Baroque came around is because of the problems with the Rennaissance.

Also, The Last Judgement had everyone covered up because it was thought innappropriate for the Sistine Chapel...Michaelangiolo wasn't too happy with that.

[Oik]

I agree with hughey's observations.

[Good Friday]

[quote name='hugheyforlife']lets face it... most people do not try to control their thougths and actions. (im talking about teenagers in general) i think parents should take more responsibility in covering up their children and emphasizing the importance of modesty.[/quote]
I think we agree on the same basic principle, that something must be done to prevent teenagers (and people in general) from lusting after each other. I think the difference is in our emphases. You're emphasizing the need for modesty; I'm emphasizing the need for purity of thought. Whereas you think that parents should make their kids cover up, I think that parents should teach their kids not to lust after others, regardless of what they're wearing.

This is [i]not[/i] to say that I support immodesty; I believe that immodesty exists, and I believe that it is sinful. But I don't think that any exposure of any flesh whatsoever is immodesty, and I think that it is far better to teach our children not to lust after others without regard to what they are or are not wearing than to start dressing them in turtlenecks and burqas. Swimwear is what it is; it's not supposed to cover everything, it's swimwear. The thongs and bikinis cross the line; but one piece suits and tankinis are fine, swimming trunks on men are fine, and if men want to wear a swimming top -- more power to them, but I don't think men who don't wear a swimming top are immodest.

[quote name='Q the Ninja']The Church at the time was in the Rennaissance and the Popes weren't exactly the best people to look towards. The reason Baroque came around is because of the problems with the Rennaissance.

Also, The Last Judgement had everyone covered up because it was thought innappropriate for the Sistine Chapel...Michaelangiolo wasn't too happy with that.[/quote]
Pope John Paul II himself has defended nudity in art, even religious art. Every depiction of the human body is not pornographic; such a mindset is Puritan, and not at all Catholic. Catholics believe very strongly that the human body is good, as all of God's creation is good, and our original condition -- as is made manifestly clear in Genesis -- is, in fact, nude. It is original sin which makes nudity somehow "bad," and it is original sin that brings lust; thus, it is eschatogically correct to depict nudity in religious art, especially religious art of the Last Judgement, because at that time original sin and its effects will be no more and the elect will once again be in the condition of original justice.

Pope after pope after pope has defended Michelangelo's use of nudity in religious art, and the use of nudity in other works of art, religious or secular. Trying to be more Catholic than the popes will often result in not being Catholic at all, and I don't think there's anything wrong with the appropriate use of nudity in art, nor do I think there is anything wrong with the human body as such. What's wrong with us is lust, and that requires not only modesty, but also purification of thought.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Jun 19 2005, 01:27 PM']Well, speedos are out... not just because they're immodest, but also because they're gross. 
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I hear that... :thatsfunny:

[Socrates]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Jun 19 2005, 12:27 PM'][quote name='Raphael']Likewise, I'm curious what men can do to be more modest at the pool.[/quote]
Well, speedos are out... not just because they're immodest, but also because they're gross.

But seriously, I think modesty for guys is really more about attitude than clothing. Men don't wear shirts in some situations, and swimming is one of them; I don't see why this would be considered immodest in our society. I think it's more about how the guy acts than how he dresses... if he's trying to show off his physique, if he's trying to make girls lust after him, then he's probably going to be successful, and that's immodest. If he just isn't wearing a shirt, but if he's not showing off about it, then most people probably aren't going to be lusting after him since a male without a shirt is not all that uncommon in our society.

However, if it's really a concern, then perhaps whenever out of the pool, men should wear a shirt of some sort, and only go without a shirt in the pool.

I think what jasJis and BelovedWolf have said in this thread are also right on. There's no reason why the human body should drive us to lust, and if it does that's something for us to work on, not necessarily to ask other people to cover up. If we get too silly about the modesty thing, we'll be asking our women to walk around in burqas.
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I'm a guy, so I really can't speak for the ladies, but I've heard women aren't as quickly visually aroused to lust, and therefore a scantily clad man isn't as much as a provocation to lust for women as a scantily clad woman is for men. I think with men the issue with modesty is more about below the waist.

And what's with this "showing off" thing? If two guys as smimming and at the beach is it more immodest for a muscular, "sexy" guy to not wear a shirt, than one who is pale and flabby, etc.? (Suppose this issue would apply to the ladies, too). I myself didn't mind "showing off" my physique (above the waist) at the pool, but wouldn't do anything immodest. It seems that as long as he is not acting immodestly toward the ladies, there shouldn't be a real issue.
(People can be hypocritical about this - one girls said she didn't want me in the pool while she was swimming because she didn't beleive in mixed swimming, but seemed to have no problem swimming with other guys.)

Also, on another point, I've hear a lot of (Catholic) girls get all upset whenever a modesty issue is raised, with the reply that "guys need to learn to control themselves." While indeed people should try to culivate purity of mind, females dressing in a way that flaunts their bodies will do nothing but provoke arousal/lust in any healthy male. No woman should dress immodestly and then try to blame any problem this causes on guys. Of course, people don't have to go around in burkas either. People need to just use common sense and good judgement here.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

Let's just all go naked whenever we go swimming.

[Oik]

Public nudity is rightfully and lawfully banned.

[Apotheoun]

Thank you IcePrincessKRS for closing the bikini thread, because we clearly do not need multiple swim wear threads.

[Dreamweaver]

I'd like to add a rant about the lack of modest swimwear. I have a long torso, so it makes finding a good fitting one piece swimsuit a bit more challenging. I last had a nice speedo that lasted several years, so it was worth the investment. I don't like 2 pieces. I don't like the fact that they ride up/ride down if you jump into a pool.

Heh, are vintage style swim suits really coming back into fashion? Sweet! One piecers are more practical than string bikinis, not just by looking at modesty.

[photosynthesis]

Every summer my family and I vacation in Stone Harbor, NJ down the shore... On that island there's a retreat center for women religious, and they have their own private area on the beach. The call it the "nun's beach." All the sisters are always out in their black bathing suits with skirts down to their knees...

I'm not sure what order they are, maybe IHM's...

[blovedwolfofgod]

Going back to what hugheyforlife said, the issue with children is all about comfort. Now, small children are the only ones in our society that can get away with the just a diaper look no matter what gender. I would ask myself why this is. At a distance, a small female is not really distinguishable from a small male. They are not even close to any adult development. They also dont have shame. Shame is a condition of sin and can be seen right after the fall or man. Children are still really young and really innocent. Jesus told us that we cannot enter heaven unless we are like little children, so I believe that supposes an innocence of children. As children have no shame, its our job to teach it to them as they grow older, and Im sure going with the natural order of things that they will develop their own sense of it. However, this also means that they can get away with much more "immodest" clothing. We can percieve their innocence, and they dont exactly move suggestively. We let them do what is comfortable (unless its run around in public nude, cause we have know that kids WILL run around their house quite naked and shamelessly). I think modesty has two parts. We cannot cater to everyone in a sexually perverse society, so we cater to the majority. Pedophiles will be aroused by children in less clothing and so their swimwear would be immodest for the situation. However, seeing as the general populace is not attracted to small children, this clothing has no immodesty because the wearer is shameless and the viewers are not oriented to this. So the two parts of modesty would be the intention of the wearer and the intention of the viewer. However when kids get older, they do need to stop dressing in scanty clothing. As their age increases, they come closer to being able to catch the eye of someone. Unfortunately, females grow a little quicker and so should be taught this a little sooner. Males should learn that women arent objects around the time that girls start to look like women (or a little b4, depending on the age and maturity of some male).

Enough of my philosophizing... probably insane anyway.

[Nicole8223]

I think one-piece is really the only thing that should be acceptable. Even tankinis that have a long top, ride up, and then a girl's stomach will show. There are plenty of "cute" one pieces. We are about virtue, not style, anyway!

And I totally agree about little girls wearing a bikini....I think that's crazy. Bikinis were created to show off a woman's body, and the fact that little girls are being put in them is crazy to me. If for nothing else, it teaches them the wrong lesson. My kids will definitely not be wearing bikinis, I don't care how old they are!

[God Conquers]

Nut-huggers for all!


:deformed:


Just be reasonable...

Don't have things popping out, don't have too much skin showing in the less-than-normally-visible areas.

[scardella]

I doubt that the majority of guys have a sexy enough torso to incite lust in the feminine folk...even if they were trying.

"Behold, the farmer tan for all generations!"
"Look in wonder at my flab!"
"Feast your eyes on my beer belly!"
etc...

[Noel's angel]

I'm just gonna wear a big raincoat and a wolly hat and gloves

[Socrates]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 19 2005, 11:29 PM']Thank you IcePrincessKRS for closing the bikini thread, because we clearly do not need multiple swim wear threads.
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Of course we need them! Phatmass should be all about babes in bikinis!

Edited June 20, 2005 by Socrates

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='scardella' date='Jun 20 2005, 01:21 PM']I doubt that the majority of guys have a sexy enough torso to incite lust in the feminine folk...even if they were trying.

"Behold, the farmer tan for all generations!"
"Look in wonder at my flab!"
"Feast your eyes on my beer belly!"
etc...
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[Lil Red]

[quote name='Dreamweaver' date='Jun 19 2005, 11:15 PM']Heh, are vintage style swim suits really coming back into fashion? Sweet!
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check out [url="http://www.jantzen.com/"]http://www.jantzen.com/[/url] - lots of cute retro swimwear

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Jun 19 2005, 08:03 PM']Pope John Paul II himself has defended nudity in art, even religious art.  Every depiction of the human body is not pornographic; such a mindset is Puritan, and not at all Catholic.  Catholics believe very strongly that the human body is good, as all of God's creation is good, and our original condition -- as is made manifestly clear in Genesis -- is, in fact, nude.  It is original sin which makes nudity somehow "bad," and it is original sin that brings lust; thus, it is eschatogically correct to depict nudity in religious art, especially religious art of the Last Judgement, because at that time original sin and its effects will be no more and the elect will once again be in the condition of original justice.

Pope after pope after pope has defended Michelangelo's use of nudity in religious art, and the use of nudity in other works of art, religious or secular.  Trying to be more Catholic than the popes will often result in not being Catholic at all, and I don't think there's anything wrong with the appropriate use of nudity in art, nor do I think there is anything wrong with the human body as such.  What's wrong with us is lust, and that requires not only modesty, but also purification of thought.
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Yep, it's true, and I'm not denying the credibility of nudity in art...just mentioning that using that specific time period isn't the best idea 'cause it got well outta hand.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Nicole8223' date='Jun 20 2005, 09:42 AM']I think one-piece is really the only thing that should be acceptable.  Even tankinis that have a long top, ride up, and then a girl's stomach will show.  There are plenty of "cute" one pieces.  We are about virtue, not style, anyway!
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Mine doesn't, and I wear it with a pair of board shorts so its WAY more modest than even a regular one piece.

I think blovedwolf has some good points about children having innocent shamelessness. Whenever I water my plants or our ducks Adrienne will run out into the yard and start playing in the basins of water for the ducks, and usually she will strip her own diaper off and begin running around totally nude. To be honest I think some little baby bikinis are cute, but I definately think modesty is more important. I don't really mind the idea of 2 piece suits in a PRIVATE setting (in your own backyard pool for example) but I think going out in public is much sketchier. (Not that I would wear a 2 piece anywhere anymore, bearing the badges of motherhood I prefer to remain a little more covered up. lol)