Assent and Dissent in Catholicism

[LittleLes]

In the present, this from Catholic World News:

"According to the survey, 87 percent of Catholic doctors said they would "prescribe birth control pills to any adult patients that request them and for whom they are medically appropriate." Of the doctors who were surveyed, 93 percent said they agreed.

Also, 90 percent of the Catholic doctors surveyed support the promotion and use of condoms to protect against HIV-AIDS in developing countries. More than any other Christian church or ecclesial community, 49 percent of Catholic physicians supported the statement, "Do you feel homosexuality is morally acceptable as a lifestyle choice?"

Any evidence countering these statistics?

LittleLes

[God Conquers]

So what?

Catholic morality does not proceed from the opinions of doctors but from the revealed Word of God.

Sorry, but these statistics only mean that most Catholic doctors do not practice their faith.

[dUSt]

It's very convenient to survey "Catholics" who don't practice their faith. Why don't you conduct the same poll here on phatmass where we actually practice our faith? Of course, that would give an accurate picture of Catholic morality and we just can't have that now can we?

[MC Just]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Jun 20 2005, 08:49 AM']It's very convenient to survey "Catholics" who don't practice their faith. Why don't you conduct the same poll here on phatmass where we actually practice our faith?  Of course, that would give an accurate picture of Catholic morality and we just can't have that now can we?
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amen!. Preach it brother!!!!

[Didacus]

I don't know about the stats, but the tendency presented seems to be accurate.

The question lies in the profession of the doctor vs their personnal beliefs. It is to be noted that a practising physician does not represent the church, and does not seek salvation of the souls of his patients. The primary duty of the physician is presevation of human life and health and human dignity.

It is difficult, if not impossible for physicians at times to mend the catholic duty with their professional duty towards their patients. The best they can do is act, each by their own conscience.

My father, a general practisionner for almost 40 years now, prescribed birth control. He also recommended condoms at times. Was he a good doctor - he was and still is mongst the best. Is he a good catholic, I believe he is. He is not perfect, but he remains a faithful catholic.

When prescribing birth control, my father did not preach, but he would sometimes encourage his patients towards other, better means. That is just about the most that can be espected by a physician during the course of this functions. But in respect to patient-doctor relationship, my father could not find justification to deny an adult such a thing. Within that respect, he found it was the doctor's duty to respect the lifestyle of the patients.

An analogous question can be posed: if the patient is openly homosexual, should the doctor stop treating his patient because of it?

Or again, if the patient cannot or refuses to stop smoking, should the doctor stop treating his/her patient?

It would seem that wether the doctor treats the patient or not, the doctor can be found in the wrong. Sometimes the only choice is the lesser of two evils? If not,what would you recommend?

On a personnal level, my father always spoke out openly against homosexulaity, birth control, and EXPECIALLY ABORTIONS. To his view, a doctor taking ANY part towards an abortion was simply NOT A DOCTOR, since he betrayed the human life of an unborn child. A doctor cannot be a doctor without respecting human life.

[photosynthesis]

also, some women take birth control for menstrual disorders, not to prevent pregnancy. In theese situations it would in fact be medically appropriate to take birth control pills if there were no other treatment options.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

What is the point of this thread?

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jun 20 2005, 09:25 AM']also, some women take birth control for menstrual disorders, not to prevent pregnancy.  In theese situations it would in fact be medically appropriate to take birth control pills if there were no other treatment options.
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As one of those women who could take birth control for "menstrual disorders", yes, I've been told I could probably take them without guilt, however, keep in mind that birth control pills, shots, patches, what have you are still in fact abortificants - that is how those "medications" work. So, I do not take them. Period. There are alternative treatments, often doctors just give you what is easy - especially when they ask, "Are you trying to have children?"

As for the stats on so-called Catholic doctors - so what Littleles.

Those doctors may consider themselves Catholic, but at best the Catholic Church ultimately considers them to be BAD Catholics - if they are lucky enough to be considered still Catholic at all.

The Catholic Church is not about what it's people believe - it's about what Jesus taught.

[Didacus]

What if the patient was not catholic or even christian? Should the doctor deny birth control then? Should the doctor deny treament?

It is not the doctor's place to judge his/her patients...It is the doctor's place to offer them treatment.

So what are you saying, that a doctor who prescribes birth control, even to a married couple be escommunicated? I find that rather harsh...

[God Conquers]

Moral laws should be universally accepted and applied.

If I believe birth control is wrong, I should NOT be encouraging others to use it in any way.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' date='Jun 20 2005, 11:37 AM']As one of those women who could take birth control for "menstrual disorders", yes, I've been told I could probably take them without guilt, however, keep in mind that birth control pills, shots, patches, what have you are still in fact abortificants - that is how those "medications" work.  So, I do not take them.  Period.  There are alternative treatments, often doctors just give you what is easy - especially when they ask, "Are you trying to have children?"

As for the stats on so-called Catholic doctors - so what Littleles.

Those doctors may consider themselves Catholic, but at best the Catholic Church ultimately considers them to be BAD Catholics - if they are lucky enough to be considered still Catholic at all.

The Catholic Church is not about what it's people believe - it's about what Jesus taught.
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but if you're not sexually active then it's OK to take them

[Didacus]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Jun 20 2005, 09:58 AM']Moral laws should be universally accepted and applied.

If I believe birth control is wrong, I should NOT be encouraging others to use it in any way.
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[/quote]

I agree, however, is it the doctor's place to dictate morality to his/her patients?

Moral law should be universally applied - of course it SHOULd, but the real world is different.

Doctors don't necessarily promote contraceptives. The doctor can try to convince the patient of a different path, but if the patient remains on their decision then it is the doctor's duty to administer treatement for the patient.

It is one of the most difficult things for a professional to discern between their functions and duties as a professional and their own religious beliefs. Confidentiality between a doctor and patient is parallel to confidentiality between a priest and someone who confesses.

The respect of the patient from the physicien is paramount, and there remains that it is not the doctor's duty to preach to his/her patients.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jun 20 2005, 10:14 AM']but if you're not sexually active then it's OK to take them
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Absolutely

[LittleLes]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Jun 20 2005, 08:44 AM']So what?

Catholic morality does not proceed from the opinions of doctors but from the revealed Word of God.

Sorry, but these statistics only mean that most Catholic doctors do not practice their faith.
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[/quote]

RESPONSE:

Or could it mean that they recognize that the Church's teachings on these matters are in error and have elected to follow their own consciences rather than assent to error??

And can you quote me the biblical teaching against birth conntrol and the use of condoms to limit the spread of AIDs?

[LittleLes]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Jun 20 2005, 08:49 AM']It's very convenient to survey "Catholics" who don't practice their faith. Why don't you conduct the same poll here on phatmass where we actually practice our faith?  Of course, that would give an accurate picture of Catholic morality and we just can't have that now can we?
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RESPONSE:

Are you claiming that 90% of Catholic doctors don't practice their faith?

Are Phatmass posters doctors? I suspected some may be members of Opus Dei from the mindset of their answers, but being physicians never occurred to me?

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Jun 20 2005, 08:57 AM']

On a personnal level, my father always spoke out openly against homosexulaity, birth control, and EXPECIALLY ABORTIONS.  To his view, a doctor taking ANY part towards an abortion was simply NOT A DOCTOR, since he betrayed the human life of an unborn child.  A doctor cannot be a doctor without respecting human life.
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RESPONSE:

I find myself in agreement with much of what you write, Didacus.

But is it consistent to claim prohibiting the use of condoms in cases when the infected individual will not remain abstinent thereby virtually assuring that his wife will develop AIDS and their children will be affected and die from this disorder consistent with any ethic of life?

[LittleLes]

[quote name='thedude' date='Jun 20 2005, 09:36 AM']What is the point of this thread?
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RESPONSE:

Tracing the history of assent and dissent in Catholicism.

I started with a present day Catholic News Service Report for openers.

[LittleLes]

The Catholic Church is not about what it's people believe - it's about what Jesus taught.
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RESPONSE:

Not necessarily. Its about what the Church tells you you must believe about what Jesus taught. There is sometimes a significance difference.

[Didacus]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 20 2005, 12:21 PM']RESPONSE:

Or could it mean that they recognize that the Church's teachings on these matters are in error and have elected to follow their own consciences rather than assent to error??


[/quote]

Not at all. A Catholic doctor prescribing birth control and who is faithful to the church will accept that in effect, that he is taking part of something immoral. However, being faced with the realities of the world and being bound by his profession, a doctor must respect the lifestyle of his patient - even if this lifestyle is sinful. (the doctor is at the service of the patient, and not vice versa, keep in mind that in a doctor-patient relationship, ultimately the patient is the one calling the shots, not the doctor. The doctor only recommends medication, presciptions, wether or not an operation should be considered - but the patient chooses the remedy. If a doctor advises against birth control, but the patient chooses to nonetheless, then the doctor is bound by his profession to ablige regardless of his religious beliefs)

A catholic doctor prescribing birth control is choosing the lesser of two evils, the greater evil being not treating his patient.

Is this right? Of course not. The lesser of any evil should not be and option.

Now, who wants to cast the first stone? I see dUst there with a rock in his hands. God Conquers is ready to take a swing am I right? Truth is, right and wrong wihtin this human world is not always as simple as a rule book.

I am not trying to justify prescribing birth control, just trying to explain why it happens and that doctors should not necessarily be stoned to death becasue of thier decision in prescribing birth control.

Edited June 20, 2005 by Didacus

[scardella]

Hippocratic Oath

"Modern Version"
[quote]I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

[b]I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures which are required[/b], avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. [b]Above all, I must not play at God[/b].

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

[b]I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.[/b]

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.[/quote]

"Classical Version"
[quote]I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfil according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:

To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art - if they desire to learn it - without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.

[b]I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.[/b]

I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.

[b]Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice[/b], of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.

What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about.

If I fulfil this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.[/quote]

Emphases mine. It would seem that if the patient wanted something contrary to their good or the good of another, for the doctor to act according to the patient's wishes would be against the Hippocratic oath that the doctors take. Edited June 20, 2005 by scardella