newbie conversion troubles - please read!

[Fides_et_Ratio]

I'm with Apotheoun's above post. True love and charity abides in the fullness of Truth... found in Catholicism.


I was the one that brought Cmom in here, as I find it rather odd that a religious (and "monastic" at that) would be on a Catholic Vocations/Converts board over the internet claiming that "conversion is only for pagans" or that abiding by the Catholic Church is "putting our own ideas above God", etc.

Perhaps it is a matter of misunderstanding anchoress' intended meanings, but I think we need to be careful how we say things as much of what anchoress has stated very clearly goes against Catholic teaching. All religions are not equal, this is unecumenical and plainly false. Secondly, no one has claimed that "Roman Catholic" was the only true Church, as anchoress keeps insisting we've said... in fact, she introduced the term "Roman" in this discussion--and this is what initially heightened my concern. I hope anchoress will come back and explain herself.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

And I'm SO sorry we hijacked your thread, Lydia!!!!

[anchoress]

jezic's pm brought me back;

I know many RC priests and many RCs who think exaclty as I do.
That all that matters is Jesus; the rest " does not matter". I know none who talk as you do.

And many religious,monks and nuns who also know as I do. Many, many, many. I na ll my time in Ireland and I meet many folk and many religious only one has ever even hinted as you talk.And none has ever been as discourteuous as you;these words are nort of Jesus.

And you have decided me to leave the Church.

Becaus where love is not, Jesus is not. And where Jesus is not, I belong not. And love is not among you.

I would never call anyone a heretic for thinking else; I do not call you that either. I know you love Jesus and I honour that.
Nothing I have said is else than of Jesus.

Charity is mine and love; and my facts are straight and true and right.


So I bless you and wish you well, and love you as brothers and sisters in Jesus; and if there is anyting I can do for you,please let me know and I will do it.

One day the light of Jesus will shine in your hearts and illuminate all.

[Noel's angel]

Anchoress, I understand what you are saying. Jezic and I have been talking about this too. Jesus, who is Love, is the centre of everything and sometimes it is easy to get wrapped up in Church documents and we forget the important things. But what the others are trying to say is that there are things that other denominations believe that prevent them from the fullness of Truth. Everyone here has good intentions and I would urge you not to leave. Any comments posted here should not make anyone decide to leave the Church. If you have lost faith in anything, it is not Christ and His Church, it is the people within it, which is exactly what happened to my mother and now she regrets it.

[Apotheoun]

Truth and Love can never be separated, or worse yet, be put in opposition to each other. To be fully in the Love (agape) of God, one must be fully in His Truth, and the fullness of God's Grace and Truth are found only in Christ's Catholic Church, which alone is His mystical Body.

Anchoress, I will pray for you.

God bless,
Todd

[+Lydia+]

Hi everyone.. just thought I'd contribute my 2cents (4cents, whatever...) seeing as my questions are those that seem to have planted the seeds for this debate.

First off, I think everyone here has their heart in the right place. No one is suggesting that those outside of the Catholic Church, be it the Roman rite or not, is without love for Jesus nor that he does not accept and love them as his children wherever they are - afterall, He alone knows their hearts! However, so many of the so called "extras" of faith ie. the Eucharist are not without purpose sought after and questioned by those of us who do not understand (but know there is something to it all) because we have a desire to know Jesus in the fullest way possible, and to make him happy by accepting those graces He has given us!

Just as Apotheoun said, God has provided many graces to those outside the Catholic Church and loves them as his own and is thus without a doubt pleased with their love for Him wherever they are... Despite this, if there is truth to the Catholic claim that we are all to be truly one family in faith, grounded by the rock of Peter, then I just don't understand why it would not be good or important to know it.

I hope I haven't offended anyone and that I'm not off track with what I'm saying here, b/c I am pretty confused by all this.

Peace
+Lydia+

[cmotherofpirl]

A note from Cmom's cheeky daughter:

Anchoress: If you call yourself Catholic, and bid others to act charitably, it seems rather contrary to your own colors to up and leave the Church when someone disagrees with you.

Yes, focus on Jesus: that is the most important thing. However, to remain willfully ignorant on all issues of what separates some worshippers/rites/denominations' ideas from others is to intentionally ignore the pursuit of truth. To me, it's a cop out - you leave out the bits of religion where you have to tell anybody they're wrong and live in a rather nonspecific, ignorant bliss.

While I think your heart is in the right place when you say that RCs are not the ONLY ones who know God - which is true - you fail to mention that other half of that idea: the fact that some people calling themselves christians DON'T know God.

On that vein, you say attempts to convert should be directed at Pagans. To that, I have no more a specific answer than this: once, while researching Satanism, I discovered that self prom-claimed Satanists reckon there's about six-thousand members of the Church of Satan in the US as of 1996. I then discovered a website that posited another idea. In their FAQ section, answering the question 'how many Satanists are there?' the authors of the website replied thusly: "There are millions and millions of Satanists. Most of them just don't know it."

Cs don't think they're completely right when it comes to God. God is other, and we are His mere creatures. We're just pretty sure we're more right that anybody else. If we think we've got a handle on the truth, it's our duty as Jesus-lovin' Christians to distribute it.

Cheers.

[anchoress]

"Yes, focus on Jesus: that is the most important thing. However, to remain willfully ignorant on all issues of what separates some worshippers/rites/denominations' ideas from others is to intentionally ignore the pursuit of truth. To me, it's a cop out - you leave out the bits of religion where you have to tell anybody they're wrong and live in a rather nonspecific, ignorant bliss."


What a way to open a mail; with accusations ! And wrong assumption you make about the spiritual position of all who know as I do. We have explored and transcended ; we are very far from ignorant, very , very far. I and you and every human have no right in Jesus to tell anyone they are wrong. No right at all. I have been very, very careful never to say anything like that. I ciringe at the mere idea......

A few weeks ago I was at a Mass in a ruined abbey here, and I met a man who knows as I do. He is a good RC but knows that others also are in Jesus as much as RC is.
Including those denoms you say are heretical in their teaching...
He is involved with a group called "True Life in God", based on revelations given by Jesus to Vassula; there is a web site, www.tlig.org

No-one there is saying there are not denom differences; far from it, and the Community at Taize live this too and bring thousands to Jesus every year, many of them youngsters lost else in today's world.

What True Life in God does is that all denoms pray together, acknlwegding, fully aware of yet transcending their differences. On the commonality of Christ.
Which is all we have and need...
That is not "non-specific ignorant bliss" ; it is the love of Jesus. Which alone is truth and life.

We are all fully aware of the differnces; we choose to transcend them. And that is bliss that is fully cognisant, fully knowing, fully aware. And very, very specific. And sometimes at first not easy. But when you achieve it.....all else falls away and the power of Jesus.....

( and no, I am not in that group... I see not the need; I can live this alone)

I am a mystic; i do not see things as others do and we have always been like this. And I have learned of many about many different traditions. The extremists always worry me because they say " we alone have the truth"; God alone has the truth. I know many who reject RC yet are so steeped in Jesus that it is ..... words fail. Many simply cannot accept the idea of the Real Presence..Why is that wrong if that is how they are? I first knew the Real Presence via the US Episc.Church.... Yet here that has been called "heretical". I made no mistake about that Real Presence.
Phew! WOW!
And I cannot " compute" these arguments... One day in Lent I was mulling all this over in deep prayer, watching the sky and the leaves..... Thinking about those dear ones known to me and various bits... A holy Anglican Nun who was so close to Jesus that it was impossible to know what denom she was.....
I still, and she went home to our Lord, know her and hear her often...
.a US Episc. lady stigmatic I had a long email correspondence with... she was raised Protestant and there were no Crucifixes in their Church. As a teenager she thought that everyone had piercing pain/ palpable but not visible holes in their hands and feet when they prayed.... She was forced to leave that Church but just could not become RC...
she too knows the Real Presence.....
Dorothy Kerin, the Founder of the UK Healing Centre at Burrswood, Free Church, also a stigmatic.. the only denom there are no stigmatics in is Orthodoxy.. healings also right across the board.. sheer confusion at Medjugorje when a little Orthdox boy was healed.. and I have met many Orthodox who call RC heretics and schismatics and vice versa...
It would make the head spin.... Lydia; I know how you feel...
Padre Pio knowingly gave Communion to all denoms; even once to a non-Christian......

And Jesus told me that day almost in an audible voice that when we each reach a certain " level" ( wrong word but hard to put His words sometimes into English) of spirituality then not only does denom not matter, it simply does not exist; then there is only Jesus, white and gold in glory..... And that vision still brings tears to my eyes ... That is where I am and have been all my life , and it gets me into some hard situations, believe me.

I would never presume to say I have the full or only truth; I have what Jesus has given me and that is all I need and want. And that is true for others also; I leave these things with Him. I would never either presume to try to persuade someone to come into this or that denom... That is Jesus' work; I have, however, nudged many gently back to Mass by living the love of Jesus for them..
because they needed to be there.... and also back to Church of England communion if that is their heritage; does not matter what I believe but what they believe in Jesus.
For anyone looking at Christianity, it is the conflicts and divisions that deter them from ever knowing Jesus. And the rules and dogmas and documents also. So I reach out to all without all that.. and am welcomed
by all as that regardless of their denomination or traditon.

I know what I know and what I believe... and that is between Jesus and me.

My spirituality is pure desert mother; going back to way before there were any divisions. and the "schisms"actualy began in the 7th century....( by the way, my Church history etc is totally accurate... I am not happy with RCIAs version) I do not see these as schism, but in most cases simply a natural growth of the Spirit often because of local cultural differences and distinctions.. as we see now in , for example, the Maronites..... If you read the Didache you might understand more also.
If you are happy where you are, fine. If you are not fulfilled where you are, great to look then also.
But to me, all are equal in God, all are loved equally where they are, and Truth is known to God alone in Jesus. And I kneel before Him on the knees of my soul..... In total awe and love....
I talk and pray often with a man who no longer has any Church, but is full fo Jesus nonetheless... We talk only of Jesus...... Never about all this..And I remmeber Saint Bernadette who could not even learn the simple catechism.....

But not any more in any one denomination.... I can no longer see the Church in that way.
Not a question of disagreeing; certainly not a fit of pique; the very idea"


Simply I see it now as many I know also seeit as the heart and soul of every person who knows Jesus, as Jesus chooses to reveal Himself to that heart and soul, and who strives to live His words fully in their lives.. see the Didache again for how to do that; a document so close to the days when Jesus walked this earth.
And that has been a long and painful journey for me and often almost cost me faith in Jesus at times. A long, long pilgrimage fraught a nd hard
To great peace now.
I honestly feel I do not belong on this forum.... It was introduced to me as existing to convert protestants.... Even Billy Graham always averred that that was for God to do... Not him, not me, not us.....
So I say with the old John the Evangelist at the end of his long lfe when they asked him what was the way of Jesus,, " Little children, love one another.. for that is the way of the Master, and if we have done that, then we have done all."
His disciples used to get weary of those words.... But they are deceptivel simple, and more than enough for this Sister's remaining life.. "Little children,.. love one another... " Simply open arms and love.... As Jesus does... So utterly hard.. yet .....
Blessings to all...

[anchoress]

PS.
Thank you all. I know now clearly and with great and utter peace and serenity in Jesus that I do not "belong" in the Roman Catholic Church.... My prayer and worship are here on the mountain with Jesus..... Simply i RC is not where Jesus wants me to be.
Thank you for helping me to clarify this.
Blessings this night.
[url="http://www.iol.ie/~anchorhold/"]http://www.iol.ie/~anchorhold/[/url]

[philothea]

Sigh.

Not that I need tell anyone here, I hope, but Vassula has been condemned by the CDF (though their website claims otherwise).

[homeschoolmom]

Alright, we are way off topic here and well, this isn't the debate table. Done.