This question is LONG overdue

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 29 2005, 06:02 AM']Thank you.  Your comments have jogged my memory.  The phrase was added in order to insure that the practice of kneeling when the Eucharistic elements are shown to the people for their adoration would be allowed to continue.  Ironically, now that the Vatican itself has indicated that kneeling at that point in the rite is "laudably retained," the phrase that was meant to defend the practice is now being used in order to try and suppress it.  Regardless, the lay faithful have a right to kneel at that point in the liturgy, even if their bishop issues a different directive, because the universal norm of kneeling can only be rescinded by the Supreme Authority of the Church, i.e., the Holy See.
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exactly................which brings me back to my previous question: should i kneel since it is my right and since it has been the custom in the churches i have always attended (until the bishops started changing things) or should i stand, which as a result of the bishops everyone is doing now, so that i will remain in unity w/ the rest of the parishioners?

i don't really know what to do................and i always feel like there's this big gaping hole that my head would fill if only i would stand like everyone else. help me out bro,

pax christi,
nick

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jun 29 2005, 07:11 AM']exactly................which brings me back to my previous question: should i kneel since it is my right and since it has been the custom in the churches i have always attended (until the bishops started changing things) or should i stand, which as a result of the bishops everyone is doing now, so that i will remain in unity w/ the rest of the parishioners?

i don't really know what to do................and i always feel like there's this big gaping hole that my head would fill if only i would stand like everyone else. help me out bro,

pax christi,
nick
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It's your personal decision.

I must admit that I rarely attend Divine Liturgy in Latin Churches anymore, but when I do attend, I kneel when the consecrated elements are shown to me, because kneeling at that point (i.e., when the priest says, "This is the Lamb of God . . .) is a sign of adoration in the Roman Rite.

[phatcatholic]

so, i shouldn't worry about the lack of unity that me kneeling would present? anyone else have an opinion?

[Fides_et_Ratio]

no. we ought not sacrifice humility and reverence for the sake of unity.

[phatcatholic]

what about the idea that kneeling focuses too much on my personal experience and not enough on the communion that we share w/ everyone that is present? (that has often been the defense for standing)

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jun 29 2005, 10:39 PM']what about the idea that kneeling focuses too much on my personal experience and not enough on the communion that we share w/ everyone that is present? (that has often been the defense for standing)
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at that point in the Mass it's not about anyone's "personal experiences", but about the fact that Christ is present in the Eucharist. the focus at that specific point in the Mass should be on the Eucharist, on receiving the Eucharist, and on adoration/reverence/awe of the Eucharist present before you.

at least, that'd be my answer.

[phatcatholic]

its frustrating. in the "spirit of unity" the bishops have just fractured the body, much like innovations "in the spirit of vatican II" have abandoned orthodoxy.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jun 29 2005, 07:39 PM']what about the idea that kneeling focuses too much on my personal experience and not enough on the communion that we share w/ everyone that is present? (that has often been the defense for standing)
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The liturgy is an action of the whole Body of Christ, but that doesn't mean that it is reducible to some kind of communal or social action. In fact, the liturgy is by definition a personal action of each member of the Body.

Moreover, kneeling (in the Roman Rite) is a sign of adoration given to Christ who is present in the consecrated elements, and so it is not some kind of "private" devotional practice; instead, it is a practice founded upon a dogmatic truth, i.e., it is a recognition of the fact that Christ is really and substantially present in the Blessed Sacrament.

[phatcatholic]

i think another argument is that we are more likely to sing the Communion Hymn when we are standing then when we are kneeling. does the hymn hold precedence over praying? i always just viewed the communion hymn as background music to my prayers w/ the Lord, prayers to prepare myself beforehand and to thank him afterwards. surely this is not wrong of me, is it?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jun 29 2005, 11:55 PM']i think another argument is that we are more likely to sing the Communion Hymn when we are standing then when we are kneeling. does the hymn hold precedence over praying? i always just viewed the communion hymn as background music to my prayers w/ the Lord, prayers to prepare myself beforehand and to thank him afterwards. surely this is not wrong of me, is it?
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When I was a member of the Latin Rite I never sang the communion hymn, because most of the time the hymn was rather inane.



I don't see anything wrong with kneeling and singing if you want to do that, or simply kneeling and praying.

One of the problems with the reform of the Roman Rite, is that there is now almost a complete lack of praying in any individual sense by the lay faithful during the rite of the Mass. This was clearly not the intention of the Council Fathers. Certainly a proper emphasis upon the communal nature of the Mass is a good thing, but it must not destroy the personal reality of the individual members of the congregation.

In the Byzantine liturgy there are moments of personal prayer and reflection and these moments are not seen as detracting from the celebration, but are integral to it.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

^ what he said. I'm in complete agreement.

[Noel's angel]

anyone have any answers to my questions???

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Jun 28 2005, 06:54 AM']The only thing that has changed in my Church is that the choir have decided to sing during the Sign of Peace.  I read somewhere that you're not supposed to do this, but I don't want to say anything until I know for certain.  Anyone here know???[right][snapback]626075[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]is it the Lamb of God that they are singing? if so, this would be incorrect. my understanding is that the Lamb of God is sung while the priest is breaking the consecrated bread for all to share. since this breaking of the bread is to occur after the sign of peace, the singing of the lamb of God during the sign of peace would be incorrect.

from the GIRM, #82-83:[list][i]The Rite of Peace[/i]

[b]82. [/b]The Rite of Peace follows, by which the Church asks for peace and unity for herself and for the whole human family, and the faithful express to each other their ecclesial communion and mutual charity before communicating in the Sacrament.

As for the sign of peace to be given, the manner is to be established by Conferences of Bishops in accordance with the culture and customs of the peoples. It is, however, appropriate that each person offer the sign of peace only to those who are nearest and in a sober manner.

[i]The Fraction[/i]

[b]83. [/b]The priest breaks the Eucharistic Bread, assisted, if the case calls for it, by the deacon or a concelebrant. Christ's gesture of breaking bread at the Last Supper, which gave the entire Eucharistic Action its name in apostolic times, signifies that the many faithful are made one body (1 Cor 10:17) by receiving Communion from the one Bread of Life which is Christ, who died and rose for the salvation of the world. The fraction or breaking of bread is begun after the sign of peace and is carried out with proper reverence, though it should not be unnecessarily prolonged, nor should it be accorded undue importance. This rite is reserved to the priest and the deacon.

The priest breaks the Bread and puts a piece of the host into the chalice to signify the unity of the Body and Blood of the Lord in the work of salvation, namely, of the living and glorious Body of Jesus Christ. The supplication Agnus Dei, is, as a rule, sung by the choir or cantor with the congregation responding; or it is, at least, recited aloud. This invocation accompanies the fraction and, for this reason, may be repeated as many times as necessary until the rite has reached its conclusion, the last time ending with the words dona nobis pacem (grant us peace).
[/list]i hope that helps

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Noel's angel]

Thanks

It isn't the Lamb of God, it is a hymn called 'Prayer for Peace' that we sing.
I haven't been joining in with this hymn because I wasn't sure, but now I will. Thank you!

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Jul 5 2005, 06:37 AM']Thanks

It isn't the Lamb of God, it is a hymn called 'Prayer for Peace' that we sing.
I haven't been joining in with this hymn because I wasn't sure, but now I will.  Thank you!
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The sign of peace really shouldn't take all that long, so I can't imagine being able to sing a song during it.

[phatcatholic]

yea, for real................there's really no point in singing a song either. every song in the mass has a purpose, but i'm at a loss for what the purpose of this song would be, or what the song would hope to achieve that the sign of peace itself does not achieve. even tho there are no documents that speak against it (i could be wrong), i wouldn't sing it if i were you.

[Noel's angel]

I know, its quite a short little thing- we only usually sing one or two verses which are:

Peace before us, peace behind us, peace under our feet. Peace within us, peace over us, let all around us be peace.

(repeat with 'love')

I think I'll stick with not singing it, just to make sure then

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Jul 5 2005, 06:55 AM']I know, its quite a short little thing- we only usually sing one or two verses which are:

Peace before us, peace behind us, peace under our feet.  Peace within us, peace over us, let all around us be peace.

(repeat with 'love')

I think I'll stick with not singing it, just to make sure then
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I've never heard of this practice. I don't believe that there is any song required during the sign of peace. The only thing that is required is the verse of the priest (The peace of the Lord be always with you) and the response of the congregation (And with your spirit), and then the exchange of the sign itself among the members of the congregation.

[Noel's angel]

I know, that's what makes me think its dodgy, but since I can't find any document which says it is wrong, then I can't really say anything

[phatcatholic]

i don't sing the contemporary folk songs we are prone to hear at mass anyway. that song sounds like one of them.

btw, that reminds me of another question i have always had: should i sing these ridiculous songs by david haas and marty haugen, or what? i don't think they're fit for the mass, but if the message is sound, should i sing them anyway? would i be worshipping the Lord inadequately by singing them or not by singing them? (a case could be made either way, i'm afraid)

what do you all think? let me know

pax christi,
phatcatholic