Meet the parents

[john6:63]

Hello board:

I’m a newbie to phatmass, my introduction maybe found here: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=35539&st=0"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...opic=35539&st=0[/url]

As my introduction states I am a Fundamental Baptist, but I really don’t consider myself that anymore. My wife is confused, the once firm fundamentalist is now questioning what he’s been raised believing.

My parents (staunch fundamentalists) are in town visiting and Tuesday night I was online and my wife made the comment that I had been “banned” from the Baptist Board. I told them why I was banned, which was for defending the limited Catholics that post there and a debate shortly ensued between myself, once again defending the Catholic faith against my wife, mom and dad. Not fair, I was outnumbered!

I started out with John 6, which was a metaphor in their opinion, which I read them 1 Cor 10:16, which Paul seemed to disagree with their interpretation and I also followed up with how one could drink and eat damnation on ones self if the elements are only symbolic per 1 Cor. 11:27. It just doesn’t make sense.

Then came the Mary worship (always does, for that was my tactic once), I told them that this was a lie, that Catholics only honor her. I told them that I didn’t understand why when a protestant hears the name “Mary” they get offended. Kinda like mentioning “Jesus” in public and the ACLU’s lawyers come out of the woodwork pointing fingers.

They told me that Mary doubted her Son right up until the cross, but I disagreed with that absurd statement.

I told them about the early Church and those early Church fathers that wrote of their time spent with the Apostles before they died and that there writings depict the Catholic Church as it is today. They didn’t have much to say about that.

My mom now was terrified of what she had been hearing and bluntly said that the devil had his grip on me, because I let doubt enter my mind and if I were to convert to the Catholic Church I would be condemned to Hell. I asked her how she could believe that when she believes in OSAS, so I told her apparently she didn’t believe OSAS, if I being “saved” today can be lost in the Catholic Church tomorrow. She said the Catholics believe in “works” and that’s not what saves. My wife then chimes in and says that the Catholics do believe in Jesus and that He died for our sins, but maybe in error in other doctrines, but that they were saved and that’s all that counts. My mom disagreed (that was the only time my wife sided with me).

They denied that the Catholics in the early centuries where the one’s that formed (Not write) the bible we have today. I stated how they thought we got the KJV, did it drop out of the sky? No answer…

Anyway, here are some questions I could not answer:

1. Why is Jesus still depicted on the Catholic cross?

2. In John 3:5, the born of “water” is the birth water when we are born. So I said “a dog is born of water too, what’s your point?” Any comments of John 3:5?

[PedroX]

Welcome John 6:63!! And, especially welcome to the little converts corner. I hope that you find some of our resources helpful, and know that we are all willing to lend a hand, especially those of us who have been there.

Your first question is relatively easy. The crucifix keeps the body of our suffering saviour on the cross to remind of us His sacrifice. It also helps to remind us of how deeply he can identify with our own sufferings. Lastly, it reminds us of how are sins caused this suffering. We place it near the altar so that as the Holy and unbloody sacrifice of the Mass is re-presented we see a visual reminder of the sacred mysteries that are unfolding in our midst.

I hope this helps.

Please ask more questions, and know that we are praying for you and your family.

peace...

[john6:63]

Hi PedroX,

Thanks for the reply concerning the Catholic cross still depicting Christ on the cross. It made sense and that was what I was thinking, but trying to get my mom and dad to see it is another story. I am sure I will get another opportunity tonight around the dinner table.

Also, I was discussing the rosary with my wife and showing her that there was NO Mary worship found in the prayers associated with the rosary. My mom and dad didn’t even want to hear the prayers.

My wife asked why do Catholics repeat the Hail Mary’s so many times and she said that the bible warns of chanting repetitious prayers, said something about vain babblings. I told her I didn’t think this was a “vain babble”, but I couldn’t explain why Catholics do repeat the Hail Mary’s.

Any comments,

God bless,
Tommy

[homeschoolmom]

Well, it's vanity that's warned against, not repetion per se. Jesus prayed in the garden three times using the same words. And there are other examples of repetition.

To me (and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong. ) the repetion of the Hail Mary has a calming, sort of relaxing nature to it. I don't have to try to think of the next thing to "say" because I do it automatically. Imagine how difficult it would be to focus on the Mysteries (the cruxifixion, the resurection, etc) of Christ if you had a "blank slate" (ie no words running through you mind) My mind wanders like crazy... to matters of running the household, raising the children... the weather, etc. So, I need "something" to keep me on task. The nice little break of a "Glory Be" and other prayers keep my from getting tooooo relaxed that I lose focus.

[john6:63]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Jul 7 2005, 12:21 PM']Well, it's vanity that's warned against, not repetion per se. Jesus prayed in the garden three times using the same words. And there are other examples of repetition.[right][snapback]634401[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Great example hsmom, I will bring this to her attention as well as your other comments.

[MilesChristi]

Brother in Christ,

If your parents and wife attack repetition, direct their attention to Psalm 136, in which the same phrase ([i]for his mercy endureth forever[/i]) is repeated 26 times in a row.

I'm praying for you, brother. God will give you the grace you need!

[theculturewarrior]

Someday, if the Holy Spirit leads you to the Catholic Church, you will taste Truth itself. Literally. You will see and taste the Truth. I get chills when I think about that.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

(sorry in advance if this gets a bit long)
You will definitely have my prayers as you prepare yourself on your journey and discovery of Truth... when I decided to reconcile to the Church after having "church hopped" for over a year with friends, the conversations that ensued weren't pretty. Sometimes the best answer is silence-- now, granted, your family will probably be a little nicer than some of my friends... but it's still a hard time nonetheless. I remember I used to come home and just lay on my bed, staring at the ceiling, praying "pleeeese, just one day where it all makes sense and I really do know what I'm talking of doing... just one day of peace"... and other than that, because it was more helpful with my friends to not quote Catholic books, etc. I spent an enormous amount of time very methodically reading the Bible, slowing when I came to something I didn't understand/didn't see how it fit into the Catholic faith, looking up some answers, and searching for conclusions... it was a long and tough ride.
But well worth it, I think.

1. Repetitious Prayers
As was already mentioned, "vain" was Christ's key word. Other than that, the Scriptures themselves are FULL of repetition--which, being inspired by the Holy Spirit they surely would not contradict the message of Jesus Christ. So many of the Psalms repeat key phrases and words (ex. Psalm 136). And in Revelation (4:8-11) the Angels sing the same pious phrase day and night (coincidently.. the phrase is also echoed in the Mass... ). So it seems odd to me that one would feel like they could not repeat a prayer... what about the Our Father? I asked my friends if we could only pray it once and never again, and they didn't come up with very satisfying answers.
I also read somewhere, I think, that the pagans babbled all the names of the god they were praying to because they could never know what that particular god wanted to be called that day, so they had to babble anything and everything to make sure that they were heard because they called the god by the name it wanted. (and, if you think about it, pagan prayers were firstly in vain because they prayed to gods whom did not exist... so their "prayers" were all for nought).

2. John 3:5
In my opinion, after reading through the verse in context a few times, the statement seems be qualified by the actions taken in v. 22--that is, after this whole big discussion on being "born again", Jesus and the disciples stayed in Judea where they were [u]baptizing[/u]. Also, even in the KJV (a few REALLY contemporary translations have different wording), John 3:5 says "water AND the spirit" the first few times I read it through, I wasn't viewing them as separate-- but one new birth through "water AND the spirit" rather than a water birth and a separate birth of the Spirit. I also like looking at this passage alongside Romans 6:4... water is often a symbol of rebirth (i.e. Noah's Ark/the Flood-- 1 Peter 3:20-21).. thus, if we are baptized into Christ's death that we might walk in newness of life it was like the bad being washed away in the Flood. (I'm sure some apologist has elaborated on that more eloquently than I could possibly attempt). So that's my stab at John 3:5... or at least how I've often seen it to make the most sense.

3. the Crucifix
To tell you the truth, the crucifix has always intrigued me more than the Cross.. and even St. Paul says "we preach Christ crucified" (1 Corinthians 1:23). Sure, the resurrection is amazing and perfect (I am definitely not knocking on the Resurrection...), but without crucifixion and death (which bore our sins), there is no resurrection and no power over sin and death. The crucifix is a reminder of just how great God's love for us is... God didn't just say "ta-da" I forgive you all your sins, He sent His only Son, born of a woman (Galatians 4:4) to redeem us through His blood. Powerful, deep, and amazing expression of the love of God...




oh, and more regarding the "Hail, Mary" prayer... it might not have been proper, but when I first started praying it, I said only that which was found in Scripture (namely Luke 1:28 & Luke 1:42) "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus" and left it at that. As I continued to learn more about the Church and grew in my embrace of her, I eventually prayed it in its entirety. (but, as I said in your introductory thread, more often than not I prayed the Divine Mercy Chaplet on my rosary beads... now, however, it's a different story and I love both devotions).

God bless as you continue your study of Catholicism.

[Brother Adam]

I think it may also be helpful, for both your journey and as an explanation in the future to learn about the history of the rosary and just why the prayers are used and what else is behind the intercessory prayers. Did you know for every Hail Mary there is a scripture passage, usually on the life of Christ used?

PS - Your package will be in the mail shortly

Edited July 8, 2005 by Brother Adam

[john6:63]

Thanks to everyone who has replied to this thread, I really appreciate it. I am taking notes in a journal of any useful points you make.

Here’s another question:

While talking with my parents and wife about prayers to the Saints, my dad commented that he has only ONE mediator and that was Christ. Of course, everyone echoed a loud Amen! And I agreed!

But I said that Catholics pray to Saints to ask for intercession, not as a mediator, just as I would ask my mom to intercede and pray for a need that I have.

Was I correct? Is there a difference between “intercession” and “mediator”?

My dad also commented that he doesn’t pray to “dead” people and I promptly reminded him that God is the God of the living, not of the dead.

[john6:63]

[quote name='PedroX' date='Jul 7 2005, 11:50 AM']Welcome John 6:63!!  And, especially welcome to the  little converts corner.  I hope that you find some of our resources helpful, and know that we are all willing to lend a hand, especially those of us who have been there.

Your first question is relatively easy.  The crucifix keeps the body of our suffering saviour on the cross to remind of us His sacrifice.  It also helps to remind us of how deeply he can identify with our own sufferings.  Lastly, it reminds us of how are sins caused this suffering.  We place it near the altar so that as the Holy and unbloody sacrifice of the Mass is re-presented we see a visual reminder of the sacred mysteries that are unfolding in our midst.

I hope this helps.

Please ask more questions, and know that we are praying for you and your family.

peace...
[right][snapback]634338[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Hi PedroX,

I noticed you are from Indianapolis, IN. I too am from Indy, I live just across the county line in Hendricks county.

I may, depends on how well my wife reacts, attend a Catholic parish this Saturday in Speedway: [url="http://www.saintchristopherparish.org/"]http://www.saintchristopherparish.org/[/url]

Have you heard anything about this parish or do you recommend another parish that is close by to me? Feel free to PM me if you like.

God bless,
Tommy

Edited July 8, 2005 by john6:63

[homeschoolmom]

PedroX is from Indianapolis-- in fact, he's a seminarian for that archdiocese. Word of warning, though... He'll probably suggest you drive into the city to go to an urban parish... He's just that kind of guy. I think the suburbs make him break out in a rash.

(This is all gentle ribbing that Pedro and I have with each other and you should probably just ignore it.)

[PedroX]

HSMom,

I would not suggest that he drive into an urban parish...I would insist on it!!

John 6:63

I will PM you later with suggestions, and would love to even have lunch with you if you want. Know that you are in my prayers.

peace...

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='john6:63' date='Jul 8 2005, 08:11 AM']But I said that Catholics pray to Saints to ask for intercession, not as a mediator, just as I would ask my mom to intercede and pray for a need that I have.

Was I correct? Is there a difference between “intercession” and “mediator”?
[right][snapback]635534[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Somewhat. In one sense, we do seek the "mediation" of the Saints in Heaven. But it is not a mediation in competition with that of Christ-- it is secondary and subordinate to the one, perfect, mediation of Jesus Christ. It is through Him that we (and the Saints in Heaven) are "mediators" for each other.
By way of mediation only, this chart:
You-->family member who prays for you-->Jesus-->the Father
is NO different (by way of mediation, remember) from this chart:
You-->Saint in Heaven-->Jesus-->the Father

If the Church, as the Body of Christ, is urged to intercede for one another on earth (1 Timothy 2:1-4-- right before the "one mediator" passage)-- it wouldn't make sense that it should change in Heaven. Even if the "saints" in Revelation 5:8 are representative of those believers on earth--it wouldn't not include those believers in Heaven--for they are still believers.. united in holiness (as "saints") even moreso than we who are believers on earth are capable of.


You seem as though you have a good grasp of things thus far. You are doing good.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='PedroX' date='Jul 8 2005, 08:47 AM']HSMom,

I would not suggest that he drive into an urban parish...I would insist on it!! 
[right][snapback]635563[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

No driving into any parish urban or not! :nono: