Knowledge

[Semalsia]

Placing so much value on faith, does anyone of you actually claim to [b]know[/b] that God exists? And if you do, what is left on faith?

Is there no doubt in your mind of God's existance? Is it 100% certain? Do you ever wonder what if there is no God?

[Semalsia]

I'll just add a quote I just read from another tread. It fits here, I think.

[quote name='Raphael']The fact of the matter is that there is no evidence to prove that position and so it's not rational to believe it when we do have another answer which is rational.[/quote]

Coming from a theist, that's actually rather strange to hear. But anyways, would you say that this quote fit to the discussion whether God exists or not? For you that God exists, of course. Meaning that you hold "God exists" to be real, because current evidence supports it? Would that mean if new evidence came about, you might change your position? If so, do you hold that there might be evidence somewhere to support the position that God does not exist and therefore knowledge of the existance of God can't be absolute?

Edited July 7, 2005 by Semalsia

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 7 2005, 04:36 PM']I'll just add a quote I just read from another tread. It fits here, I think.

[quote name='Raphael']The fact of the matter is that there is no evidence to prove that position and so it's not rational to believe it when we do have another answer which is rational.[/quote]

Coming from a theist, that's actually rather strange to hear. But anyways, would you say that this quote fit to the discussion whether God exists or not? For you that God exists, of course. Meaning that you hold "God exists" to be real, because current evidence supports it? Would that mean if new evidence came about, you might change your position? If so, do you hold that there might be evidence somewhere to support the position that God does not exist and therefore knowledge of the existance of God can't be absolute?
[right][snapback]634797[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Yea i totally agree with rapheal's statement there.......you cant prove god. You can pick things out that presuppose his existence though......miracles, what jesus had to say, etc. You certainly cant disprove god though and there is nothing that presupposes that he doesnt exist. Even believers need more evidence at times. I think people believe in god because they notice the changes over time within themselves and feel his presence. They certainly dont see him though......although some have claimed to have such as st. thomas aquinas and mother theresa.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]We walk by faith, not by sight.

--2Cor 5:7[/quote]

We can deduce by reason that there is a God. This is a knowledge of reason and faith, however, not sight.

For example, I can examine all the evidence that Adolf Hitler existed. I can look at documents, photos, anecdotes from those who saw him, etc. But I can never see him for myself. I must accept, based on the evidence of reason, that he did in fact exist.

[Semalsia]

Right. If you do not hold to absolute knowledge [i]and[/i] don't think such knowledge is possible to gain, are you not agnostics?

[Guest Eremite]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 7 2005, 05:12 PM']Right. If you do not hold to absolute knowledge [i]and[/i] don't think such knowledge is possible to gain, are you not agnostics?
[right][snapback]634833[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

An agnostic doesn't make a decision. Theists make a decision. The evidence all points to God, and so we accept the evidence and believe in him.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Eremite']An agnostic doesn't make a decision. Theists make a decision. The evidence all points to God, and so we accept the evidence and believe in him.[/quote]

But you deny absolute knowledge and rely on faith. How can both be true?

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]But you deny absolute knowledge and rely on faith. How can both be true?
[/quote]

How can both what be true? Faith is, by definition, a denial of absolute knowledge. There is moral certainty, and absolute certainty. The light of reason assures us with moral certainty that there is a God. Unlike agnostics, Christians choose to accept the light of reason, and thus accept God's existence.

After we die, faith and hope cease to exist, because we know by sight, not by faith.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Eremite']How can both what be true?[/quote]

That you rely on faith and that you are not agnostic (not agnostic = gnostic, meaning you hold there is absolute knowledge and you know it).

[quote name='Eremite']Faith is, by definition, a denial of absolute knowledge.[/quote]

Exactly. A contradiction is formed.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]That you rely on faith and that you are not agnostic (not agnostic = gnostic, meaning you hold there is absolute knowledge and you know it). [/quote]

An agnostic does not commit themselves to a proposition (namely, that God does or does not exist). A Christian does commit themselves to a proposition (namely, that God does exist).

[quote]Exactly. A contradiction is formed. [/quote]

No, it's not a contradiction. Christians believe that it is an absolute truth that God exists. Their act of faith in this truth, however, is not absolute (epistemelogically speaking). It rests on moral certainty, not absolute certainty (in other words, by faith, not by sight).

An agnostic does not believe it to be an absolute truth that God does or does not exist; neither does he exercise a morally certain faith in either proposition.

A distinction must be made between the proposition that God exists, which Christians hold as absolute, and the actual act of faith, which is not held as absolute, but as an act of faith enlightened by reason and confirmed by moral certainty.