The rosary

[john6:63]

Hello once again,

A few members have asked me in previous posts if I knew the history and meaning of the rosary and if I have one (a rosary).

The answers are no and I don’t know any fundamental Baptists that have a rosary, so no to that question as well.

Since I have basically been focusing on my own misconceptions of what I’ve been taught, like OSAS, Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide and just why was there a Reformation and why the Reformers removed certain books from the bible. And that’s not even considering the doctrines of the Catholic Church it self I’ve been studying. So I’ve been a busy boy lately, trying to not take too much in at one time and waiting patiently on the Lord to grant me clarity.

So I decided today to actually look at the rosary and gather as much information as I can off the net and in doing so, questions arise.

I asked in a pervious post to another thread if there was a difference between a “mediator” and an “intercessor” in regards to prayers to the Saints. Do Catholics ask Saints to “intercede” for them or to act as a “mediator”?

Which brings me to my next question concerning the rosary. In the closing prayer of the rosary I see a prayer entitled “Hail, Holy Queen”.
[quote] Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To thee we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, O most gracious Advocate, thy eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary. Pray for us, O holy Mother of God. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.[/quote]
My concern is the use of [b]Advocate[/b] in regards to Mary. Keep in mind that I was raised a fundamentalist and was always taught there was only one Advocate and that is Jesus Christ, which, if I remember correctly, scripture clearly teaches. Do I understand correctly that Mary is acting as our Advocate as well? The “A” is capitalized in word Advocate, which seems to me hold some authority.

My wife has a problem with this and once again I was stuck without a sufficient enough answer. The only answer I could give is that a Catholic isn’t required to pray the rosary. To be honest, I couldn’t say the prayer either until I understood what’s actually being conveyed in regards to Mary being an Advocate.

Could it be that in the prayer we are asking Mary to turn Jesus our Advocate’s eyes towards us? Or am I way off base.

God bless,
Tommy

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Well, "techinically" the Scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit is our advocate...

Which, in my understanding (I'm sure some more knowledgeable phatmasser will correct me if I'm thinking astray...) it makes a difference. As Christ was conceived "by the power of the Holy Spirit" (according the Nicene Creed, etc.).. this creates a spousal sort of relationship (which also flows from Mary's being created immaculately) between Mary and the Holy Spirit... the majority (if not all..) of Marian teachings flow from Mary's role as mother of Jesus (for this makes her mother of the Head of the Body of Christ, and thus of the Body (us.. it's members). "Advocate" also comes from the Old Testament "Queen Mother Tradition"... if you recall, in the OT, the Queen was the mother of the king, and not his wife. And the Queen Mother served as the chief intercessor (/advocate) for the people to the King (1 Kings 2:12-19 or 20-something, I can't recall exactly). As Jesus is our King, so Mary as the mother of Jesus is Queen...

Also see the Catechism (CCC 967-970) for some remarks about it.

Anyway (sorry I'm sort of rambling...) St. Maximilan Kolbe is a great Saint to study on this matter (though, he is heavily devoted to Mary, and sometimes scares me a bit--but I've noticed he words things very carefully).

[Brother Adam]

I had the same question when I was considering the Church. Here is the answer:

This and much more is on its way in the package I mailed to you.



Hail Holy Queen Hail- a greeting for one who you have greatly desired to speak to. the angel spoke this way too Luke 1:28 when speaking to Mary. Queen- in the davidic kingdom, the mother of the king was always seen as the queen. the roll of this queen is seen in 1 Kings 2:17, 20; 1 Kings 2:18; 1 Kings 2:19; 1 Kings 15:13; 2 Chron. 22:10; Neh. 2:6 Holy- the ark of the covenant was considered holy because it housed the word of God at one point, so too did Mary house the WORD of God. in 2 Chron. 8:11 it shows that even the places the ark has been to become holy just because the ark has been there, meaning the ark is holy. also, the power of the most high overshadowed her Luke 1:35 she is filled with grace and the Lord is with herLuke 1:28

Mother of Mercy Jesus Christ is mercy. Mary is Jesus' mother, the mother of the Lord Luke 1:43 so Mary is MERCY's mother.

<repeat to emphasize something>Mother of: mercy,Our Life, our sweetness, and our hope you see, it's Mother of the following four things: Mercy, Our Life, Our Sweetness, and Our Hope. and in a special way, too then, she herself is our life, sweetness, and hope, she's those things by ASSOSIATION. because she raised mercy itself, we owe some gratitude to her for that very mercy. because she raised Him who is Our Life, because she brought Him into the world, we owe gratitude to her and in some way she takes on that attribute simply by her mothering Him who is our life, etc etc with the other two. Mary gave us hope by accepting Jesus Christ into her womb. Luke 1:38 all of these things combined seem to indicate holiness.

to thee do we cry the ppl in a Davidic kingdom see the mother of the king, the Gebirah or Queen Mother, as one who intercedes on their behalf 1 Kings 2:18

poor banished children of eve we were all born not into immortality in paradise, but because of eve's acceptence of the serpent and Adam's acceptance of his wife we were BANISHED from paradise. Genesis 3:17

to thee do we lift up our sighs again: the ppl in a Davidic kingdom see the mother of the king, the Gebirah or Queen Mother, as one who intercedes on their behalf 1 Kings 2:18

mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.psalms do this kinda stuff all the time, and lamentations, and yeah, most of the OT, mourning over sinfulness, and over exile (as we were exiled from the Garden of eden). this is the whole point of prayer and fasting, it is a very good spiritual thing to mourn and weap over what offenses we cause to God.

turn then, most gracious advocate again, the Davidic kingdom, the queen mother was always pleading to the king on behalf of her ppl. 1 Kings 2:18 i encourage you to read Scott Hahn's book, ironically enough, HAIL HOLY QUEEN

thine eyes of mercy towards us this again has to do with the "Gebirah" again, the queen mother, so see again: 1 Kings 2:17, 20; 1 Kings 2:18; 1 Kings 2:19; 1 Kings 15:13; 2 Chron. 22:10; Neh. 2:6

and after this our exile, we have been banished, exiled, out of paradise and God's presenceGenesis 3:17, by the woman and her seed shall we fight the one who banished us Genesis 3:16 by Jesus, the seed of the woman, we have the power to again be sons of God John 1:12 baptism saves us from our banishment 1 Peter 3:21 through the resurection, thus we may one day again enter the presence of God, those who do the will of the Heavenly Father will one day enter the presence of God again, paradise, HEAVEN Matthew 7:21

show unto us the blessed fruit of they womb, the angel refers to Jesus as the blessed fruit of Mary's womb Luke 1:28 and Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit Luke 1:41 also refers to Him as such Luke 1:42

Jesus hehe, you cannot disagree with invoking His Holy Name in prayer

Oh clement, oh loving, oh sweet Virgin Mary Virgin Mary- She pledged a life of virginity all her life, which was the only reason she was so shocked and didn't understand how she could bear a child without 'knowing man' Luke 1:34 it's not she hadn't yet known man, but she DOESN'T know man, that means past present and future. clement- loving- one who is filled with grace and most blessed of all women Luke 1:28 will be called blessed by every generation Luke 1:48 who heard the word of God and kept it as a model for all Luke 11:28 would of COURSE be loving, she is shown to be one of the greates of Jesus' disciples, she spent 30 years with Him hearing His message, so she must have gotten this message of love more than anyone. clement and sweet- same verses, blessed and grace-filled would of course produce a very sweet woman who is good and merciful, she spent thirty years with the one who is source of all mercy, don't you think a lil of His goodness, His sweetness, His love, at least rubbed off? she's in heaven, and those that stand before the Father are perfected Matthew 5:48

Pray for us oh holy mother of God pray for us- intercession of the mother of the king again 1 Kings 2:17, 20; 1 Kings 2:18; 1 Kings 2:19; 1 Kings 15:13; 2 Chron. 22:10; Neh. 2:6 holy- 2 Chron. 8:11 Luke 1:28 Luke 1:35 mother of God- Luke 1:43

that we may be found worthy of the promises of Christ first that we are unworthy servants Luke 17:10 then that we can be made worthy through Christ "by His wounds we are healed" Isaiah 53:5 He promised to heal us and to give us a light yoke Matthew 11:30 and He promised also that we would be persecuted Matthew 24:9 but that is a blessing Matthew 5:12 he gave the promise of eternal life John 3:16 if we do the will of His father Matthew 5:48; Matthew 7:21

anyway, i figured since it's a scary new thing, i should walk through step by step with you with the scriptures.

peace be with you on your journey, follow God's will.

Pax et Amorque Christi

Edited July 8, 2005 by Brother Adam

[Brother Adam]

[quote]I asked in a pervious post to another thread if there was a difference between a “mediator” and an “intercessor” in regards to prayers to the Saints. Do Catholics ask Saints to “intercede” for them or to act as a “mediator”?[/quote]

In a purely Protestant understanding of the words, Catholics ask the saints only for intercession. In a Catholic understanding of the word 'mediation' we see Mary as a 'mediator of grace'.

The objection to this is that "only Jesus is our mediator". Yet the scriptures say Jesus is our only mediator of a better covenant. Mary does not mediate our covenant of course.

Any 'mediation' of Mary is within the mediation of Christ. An example of the mediation of Mary is seen in John 2:1 at the wedding of Cana.

[homeschoolmom]

Hey, Tommy... Don't worry about being uncomforable. It's not at all uncommon. I couldn't say all of the rosary when I first prayed it either (especially Hail, Holy Queen). Don't push yourself. As you said, you are having to unlearn and relearn a lot of stuff. And many Catholic things (like this) are somewhat repulsive to the fundementalist's sensibilities. I still cannot read certain books of the OT cannon. God understands. He's patient.

[kateri05]

oh i'm so glad this is common my husband is seriously considering/planning on conversion and he likes mary now (lol somehow that implies he didn't before ), but hes still very freaked out by the rosary... i'm working on him these explanations are all great.
and hsmom, just out of curiousity, which books? brian says that he can tell which are the "catholic books" just by hearing them read outloud (like sirach or wisdom), because they don't "sound" like the bible. and i don't know if that means hes just so familiar with the bible as a protestant that he can tell he's never heard those parts before or if the style is genuinely different from the rest of scripture in some way that i've never noticed!

[homeschoolmom]

I think part of it has to do with the rest of Scripture with which we are so familiar. But I think when you hear, "A reading from the book of Sirach" you might set yourself up to think, "Gee, this is going to be weird."

[PedroX]

My favorite is Baruch.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='PedroX' date='Jul 8 2005, 06:08 PM']My favorite is Baruch.  
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Of course it is. :bugeyes:

[mariology21]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Jul 8 2005, 06:49 PM']I think part of it has to do with the rest of Scripture with which we are so familiar. But I think when you hear, "A reading from the book of Sirach" you might set yourself up to think, "Gee, this is going to be weird."
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Yup! I used to think that. Now I've started to read the Old Testament books. I'm reading Sirach right now actually. I read a chapter a day (usually) and meditate on it throughout the day. Although I've gotten "stuck" on a chapter....and keep re-reading that. I think God's telling me something through it, and I can't leave it!

~Jen

[Brother Adam]

Ah man, you have to read Tobit. Great book!

[littleflower+JMJ]

Tobit is definitely good

[john6:63]

[quote name='Brother Adam']This and much more is on its way in the package I mailed to you. [/quote]
Thanks, I defiantly look forward to receiving the package!

[quote name='Brother Adam']anyway, i figured since it's a scary new thing, i should walk through step by step with you with the scriptures. [/quote]
Thanks for the time you took to explain the prayer in some detail. I appreciate it. You now we fundamentalists love it when scripture is used to prove a point. :read:

I may need to pick up a few of Scott Hahn’s books. I did see some at a book store, but I bought a book by Kevin Orlin Johnson entitled “Why do Catholics do that?” Good book, I’ve learned a lot about how the scriptures Old and New Testaments were collected and put together and about how the Catholic Church is operated and the book cleared up my misconceptions about the Popes infallibility.

Thanks again Adam!
God bless
Tommy

[TheWarriorPrincess]

Jesus did not leave us orphans. He left us with a Father and a Mother. And I myself am an advocate. I advocate for the Church, and for many causes. Words mean different things to different people, but Jesus reserved very few words to Himself. God is one. Messiah is another. However, in some cultures, parents name their children "Jesus." That is the word in Spanish for Joshua, and it is not idolatry.

There is a cultural tendency in America to prohibit certain words. I know a protestant who won't say "swear word," because she thinks "swear" is a prohibited word.

If it troubles your conscience, lay it aside. I do not say "swear word" around my protestant friend, because I love her, and I don't want to trouble her. God feels the same way about you, and He will teach you to love the rosary when you are ready.

Edited July 9, 2005 by TheWarriorPrincess

[theculturewarrior]

oops.

[kateri05]

tobit ROCKS if only the hubbie had been catholic 7 months ago cuz we TOTALLY woulda had the tobit reading at the wedding its beautiful! :wub: as for sirach, "My son, when you go to serve the Lord, prepare yourself for hardships!" wise words from a wise man

[Jake Huether]

I'd like to add something that can pose as a stumbling block at times...

Catholics know that Jesus is the ONE mediator between God and man.

Praying to Mary in know way takes this away.

I'll use a very simple diagram...

Me = Man.

Mary = "Man" (woman, but man in the sence of human).

Jesus = mediator between God and man.

Me praying to Jesus = Man - Jesus - God.

Mary praying to Jesus = Man - Jesus - God.

Now, when I pray to Mary, she still brings my prayers to Jesus!

So it remains:

Me praying to Mary, Mary praying to Jesus = Man - Man- Jesus-God.

And thus Jesus is still the mediator between Man and God. We know Mary and all the Saints are human. They need to go to Jesus first, even with our prayers.

Hope that clarifies a bit.

God bless.

[jezic]

i like that idea.