Democracy in the Church

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 11 2005, 08:26 AM']RESPONSE:

Aren't Catholics taught the basics of Church history? Evidently an erroneous assuption on my part. Mea culpa! 

For those who have not been, I'd recommend "A Concise History of the Catholic Church" 3rd edition, by Fr. Thomas Bokkenkoter. It's in paperback. The reason I like the 3rd edition, is that the author has added a very extensive bibliography for each section of his book which makes crossreferencing or further reading easy.

But to make it even easier, let me give an overview of the development of leatership in the early Pauline Church.

[. . .]
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This "response" is actually an [b]evasion[/b]. It is your contention that Pope St. Leo altered the Church's theological understanding of her own nature, and I have asked you to support this assertion by referring to Pope St. Leo's own writings, and so far you haven't done that. I still await your proof.

Blessings to you,
Todd

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='Jul 11 2005, 10:08 AM']Hold on.  Does this mean that the local university physics department isn't a democracy?  The laws of physics don't change based on a majority vote of physics professors and students?  Oh, no!  More tyranny!
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RESPONSE:

That's right! Now you've got it. But, then, no physics department claims to be a religion, nor to having been appointed by God.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 11 2005, 11:40 AM']RESPONSE:

That's right! Now you've got it.   But, then, no physics department claims to be a religion, nor to having been appointed by God.
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They claim to teach absolute truth. And I assure you, most college professors believe themselves to be appointed by God after they get tenure! Or maybe they just believe themselves to be God...

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 11 2005, 10:38 AM']This "response" is actually an [b]evasion[/b].  It is your contention that Pope St. Leo altered the Church's theological understanding of her own nature, and I have asked you to support this assertion by referring to Pope St. Leo's own writings, and so far you haven't done that.  I still await your proof.

Blessings to you,
Todd
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RESPONSE:

Not at all. Please reread my posts. What I claimed, and is historically correct, is the Pope Leo expanded the concept of the Papacy.

He is considered to be the first of the popes to put the idea of unlimited papal jurisdiction fully into practice. He took the Roman title of "Pontifex Maximus " which continues to be used by the popes to this day.

You might enjoy reading the article titled "The History and Development of the Papacy" at the religionfacts.com website.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='Jul 11 2005, 10:48 AM']They claim to teach absolute truth.  And I assure you, most college professors believe themselves to be appointed by God after they get tenure!  Or maybe they just believe themselves to be God...
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I spent enough days in University to confidently second that notion.
(though there are several exceptions as well)

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 11 2005, 08:57 AM']RESPONSE:

Not at all. Please reread my posts. What I claimed, and is historically correct, is the Pope Leo expanded the concept of the Papacy.

He is considered to be the first of the popes to put the idea of unlimited papal jurisdiction fully into practice. He took the Roman  title of "Pontifex Maximus " which continues to be used by the popes to this day.

[. . .]
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No, you have presented your opinion, and that of the authors you have selectively chosen to quote, but I want you to prove your assertions about Pope Leo by showing that your views are based upon what he actually said. Anything else remains merely your unsubstantiated opinion.

Blessings to you,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 11 2005, 08:57 AM']You might enjoy reading the article titled "The History and Development of the Papacy" at the religionfacts.com website.[/quote]
You might enjoy reading some of Pope St. Leo's writings.

[peach_cube]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 11 2005, 08:26 AM']
RESPONSE

The pope desired complete power and control. Some  even claimed that they had the power and authority to appoint and depose civil rulers. [/quote]

Within the fuedal system the diocese where often looked as being vassels. Because of this the overlord would appoint who he favored to any open seats. Sometimes he did this for political advantage and sometimes the positions where sold off. Case in point the anti-pope Anacletus.

Many of the councils of this time where working toward curbing the practice of simony on various levels. This happens to be one of them. As evidenced even by modern democracy, positions can be bought.

Look it up in any secular history book, unless the author is completely jaded, he will state that these moves were to control the coruption brought on by the fuedal system.

Appointing and deposing civil leaders was in the churches power with respect to Emporers. Otherwise, the church had the power of excommunication and interdict.

[quote]One even claimed that he was automatically made a saint on becoming pope. I think some Catholics still believe that !
[/quote]
Who was this. And some athiests believe the seasons are caused by the Earth being closer to the sun in the summer and further in the winter.

Edited July 11, 2005 by peach_cube

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 11 2005, 10:30 AM']RESPONSE:

Of course Catholic moral teachings change. In past posts I've given a number of examples. The easiest of course and one of the best documented is the reversl of the Church's traditional teaching on the biblical and natural law moral legitimacy of slavery.
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You seem to have completely missed my point. I was not discussing infallibility and development of doctrine (which you don't seem to understand) I was speaking of the false notion that truth itself changes -- and that teachings of Catholicism could be determined by a "popular vote" by Catholics.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 11 2005, 11:00 AM']No, you have presented your opinion, and that of the authors you have selectively chosen to quote, but I want you to prove your assertions about Pope Leo by showing that your views are based upon what he actually said.  Anything else remains merely your unsubstantiated opinion.

Blessings to you,
Todd
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RESPONSE:

I don't think I have the power to resurrent him and ask him what he actually said. So we'll just have to go with what the historians report.

However, having said that, I think copies of some of his writings are available.

I'll check it out and let you know.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 11 2005, 07:34 AM']RESPONSE:

For the same reason that they don't vote on the laws of physics.
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that's the only intelligent thing i've ever heard you say.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='peach_cube' date='Jul 11 2005, 12:46 PM']

Look it up in any secular history book, unless the author is completely jaded, he will state that these moves were to control the coruption brought on by the fuedal system. 

Appointing and deposing civil leaders was in the churches power with respect to Emporers.  Otherwise, the church had the power of excommunication and interdict.
Who was this.  And some athiests believe the seasons are caused by the Earth being closer to the sun in the summer and further in the winter.
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RESPONSE:

Yes. I'll sure that when the Pope deposed civil authority it was only because he had the peoples best interests at heart And of course, never his own.

Lets take a look at a few paragraphs of Pope Gregory' VII's "Dictatus Papae" (The Dictates of the Pope) from 1090 A.D.

9. That of the pope alone all princes shall kiss the feet.

12. That it may be permitted to him to depose emperors.

19. That he himself may be judged by no one.

23. That the Roman pontiff, if he have been canonically ordained, is undoubtedly made a saint by the merits of St. Peter; St. Ennodius, bishop of Pavia, bearing witness, and many holy fathers agreeing with him. As is contained in the decrees of St. Symmachus the pope.

[jasJis]

Les reminds me of [color=orange][b]corn[/b][/color].

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Jul 11 2005, 12:46 PM']You seem to have completely missed my point.  I was not discussing infallibility and development of doctrine (which you don't seem to understand) I was speaking of the false notion that truth itself changes -- and that teachings of Catholicism could be determined by a "popular vote" by Catholics.
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RESPONSE:

No. The Catholic Church's moral teaching have changed. The "development of doctrine" claim ,in the case of obvious changes in moral teachings, is not a creditable explanation.

For example:
Instruction, Holy Office, 1866 "It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, exchanged or given. "

Changed to:
Catechism of the Catholic Church # 2414 "The seventh commandment forbids acts or enterprises that .... lead to the enslavement of human beings, to their being bought, sold and exchanged like merchandise, in disregard for their personal dignity. "

Note the change in this teaching. From "not contrary to the natural and divine law" to a sin against the 7th commandment. And in his Veritatis Splendor, #80, Pope John Paul II calls slavery intrinsically disordered.

This is a change in morel teaching, not a development in doctrine.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 11 2005, 11:00 AM']No, you have presented your opinion, and that of the authors you have selectively chosen to quote, but I want you to prove your assertions about Pope Leo by showing that your views are based upon what he actually said.  Anything else remains merely your unsubstantiated opinion.

Blessings to you,
Todd
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RESPONSE:

Lets take a look at Pope Leo's:

To The Synod Of Ephesus

"The devout faith of our most clement prince, knowing that it especially concerns his glory to prevent any seed of error from springing up within the catholic Church, has paid such deference to the Divine institutions as TO APPLY TO THE AUTHORITY OF THE APOSTOLIC SEE FOR A PROPER SETTLEMENT: as if he wished it to be declared by the most blessed Peter himself what was praised in his confession..."

So the Apostolic See is to settle disputes. And are you claiming this really isn't to centralize authority in the papacy?