corban711 Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 On October 1st, in a location in California to be announced, Robert Sungenis and Gerry Matatics will be debating whether or not the Novus Ordo fulfills the Sunday obligation. Sungenis will be arguing that it does and Matatics says no. Pray for these two men and for the debate. I wonder if this debate will do any good or just cause further division within the circles they run in.
daugher-of-Mary Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 The Church has spoken...debate will just increase division.
Mrvoll Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 Well Gerry Matatics is a member of the Fatima Society and the Fatima Crusader said that VCII was an evil council. What is the point anyhow ?
Socrates Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 Of course Novus Ordo fulfills the Sunday obligation! Unfortunately, I am afraid this debate, and Matatics' other activities will do no good for the Church, and only spread division and scandal. Pray for Gerry Matatics. He has truly gone off the deep end, and at least borders on being in schism.
corban711 Posted July 12, 2005 Author Posted July 12, 2005 it is really sad to me...these two men are both prominent speakers in their circles. of course people will be interested because who the debaters are but i don't think there should be a debate at all. not just because they should know and agree with the Church's teachings, but i think these debates between two Catholics makes us look bad. if our own Church can't agree...? you know? this is bad. according to Karl Keating's e-letter and Gerry Matatics' website, Gerry recently had almost all of his speaking engagements cancelled because he has gone even further in his stances on certain topics (the validity of the Novus Ordo and ordination rite). I think this will be very bad. Our Lady, help us!
homeschoolmom Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 [quote name='daugher-of-Mary' date='Jul 12 2005, 01:44 PM']The Church has spoken...debate will just increase division. [right][snapback]640990[/snapback][/right] [/quote] agreed...
corban711 Posted July 12, 2005 Author Posted July 12, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 12 2005, 01:47 PM']Of course Novus Ordo fulfills the Sunday obligation! Unfortunately, I am afraid this debate, and Matatics' other activities will do no good for the Church, and only spread division and scandal. Pray for Gerry Matatics. He has truly gone off the deep end, and at least borders on being in schism. [right][snapback]640995[/snapback][/right] [/quote] yes, please pray for him. i remember hearing his conversion story and a couple of his debates with protestant ministers...this guy has an incredible mind and gift for debate. he could do SO much good...so much good. imagine if him and Scott Hahn were still best friends and were working together...what they could accomplish!!! i feel really bad for Scott as it must hurt to see a friend so close to him fall this way...please pray for him.
Apotheoun Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 I go to Latin Churches when I can't get to an Eastern Church for the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, so it better count.
Semperviva Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 [quote name='corban711' date='Jul 12 2005, 01:40 PM']On October 1st, in a location in California to be announced, Robert Sungenis and Gerry Matatics will be debating whether or not the Novus Ordo fulfills the Sunday obligation. Sungenis will be arguing that it does and Matatics says no. Pray for these two men and for the debate. I wonder if this debate will do any good or just cause further division within the circles they run in. [right][snapback]640988[/snapback][/right] [/quote] ...oh gosh, Mr. Matatics, yeah, [b]just pray for him ppl[/b]- thats all - cuz he is def. in schism... not good not good i know his daughter she is really beautiful and wonderful she is very sincere and holy... and my guess is she is a reflection of how he is in his beliefs... she really thinks she's doing the right thing in her beliefs...but they're still wrong...pray for them!!
Dave Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 I heard Gerry Matatics speak a couple months ago. I'd heard about his upcoming debate with Robert Sungenis, and so I knew he was probably going to try to tell us that the Novus Ordo Mass was invalid. Sure enough, he said that there was a good chance that it was invalid, and he spouted the same old tired radical traditionalist reasons for that. So I couldn't just stand there. During the question and answer period after his talk I got up and challenged his claims, and so did some other people. Sadly, I've since heard through the grapevine that Matatics is now officially a sedevacantist.
phatcatholic Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 so, according to him, what exactly makes the novus ordo mass invalid?
Dave Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 Mainly it's the old "for all" vs. "for many" argument.
phatcatholic Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 ok, i don't know alot about this topic, so bear w/ me....... i thought, as long as the priest said, "this is my body" and "this is my blood" then it was valid. why does the "for many / all" thing matter?
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 [quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jul 12 2005, 05:58 PM']ok, i don't know alot about this topic, so bear w/ me....... i thought, as long as the priest said, "this is my body" and "this is my blood" then it was valid. why does the "for many / all" thing matter? [right][snapback]641214[/snapback][/right] [/quote] He is now claiming that post-1968 ordinations are invalid.
Guest Eremite Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 There are some radical "Traditionalists" who even refuse to use missals after 1955, when Pius XII reformed the order of Holy Week.
Dave Posted July 12, 2005 Posted July 12, 2005 [quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jul 12 2005, 05:58 PM']ok, i don't know alot about this topic, so bear w/ me....... i thought, as long as the priest said, "this is my body" and "this is my blood" then it was valid. why does the "for many / all" thing matter? [right][snapback]641214[/snapback][/right] [/quote] You're correct. However, Matatics and others like him think that's just a theological opinion, and they faultily interpret what the Council of Trent claims is necessary for a valid consecration.
Brother Adam Posted July 13, 2005 Posted July 13, 2005 The Novus Ordo is invalid only if every pope from John XXIII and beyond are anti-popes, the Magisterium of the Church isn't *really* the magisterium, and if the Second Vatican Council and the Code of Canon law are wrong.
Socrates Posted July 13, 2005 Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Jul 12 2005, 09:32 PM']The Novus Ordo is invalid only if every pope from John XXIII and beyond are anti-popes, the Magisterium of the Church isn't *really* the magisterium, and if the Second Vatican Council and the Code of Canon law are wrong. [right][snapback]641467[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Such is the sedevacantist claim.
corban711 Posted July 13, 2005 Author Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Jul 12 2005, 09:32 PM']The Novus Ordo is invalid only if every pope from John XXIII and beyond are anti-popes, the Magisterium of the Church isn't *really* the magisterium, and if the Second Vatican Council and the Code of Canon law are wrong. [right][snapback]641467[/snapback][/right] [/quote] that is exactly what karl keating said in his e-letter...that is the conclusion matatics would have to hold in order to stick to the logic of his position, which apparently he does since all his speaking engagements for the year were cancelled (except for one, i think). a lot of different groups don't want to be associated with him any more because of his positions on these topics.
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