Covenant and infallibility of the CHurch

[goldenchild17]

"[u]Are we are in the covenant or not?[/u] If not, we are pagans and are in know way saved. [u]If we are, we are part of the Church, and thus not infallible.[/u]"

Okay, so if the Church is guided from error in all truths, then are Protestants(who are baptised) entered into the Covenant? And if so, how does this protect the Church of the Covenant from infallibility? If that was confusing let me know.

From here is what I'm referring to: [url="http://www.christianguitar.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2027592#post2027592"]http://www.christianguitar.org/forums/show...592#post2027592[/url]

[phatcatholic]

it depends on how you define "church."

the "church", as in "the members of the One Body of Christ" are infallible only insofar as they are in accordance with the "church" as in "the infallible magisterium."

does that answer your question?

[Apotheoun]

The covenant is not made with disparate individuals; instead, it is made with the whole community of faith, i.e., the Catholic Church.

Now only those who are incorporated into the body of Christ through baptism, and who practice the common life of worship, and who accept governance by the apostolic hierarchy, are full members of the Catholic Church.

That being said, those persons who are baptized in ecclesial communities that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church, are, by their baptism, brought into communion – albeit imperfect – with the one Catholic Church governed by the successor of St. Peter. That is why Protestants are Christians even though they are not in full communion with the Catholic Church.

However, if a man knows that membership in the Catholic Church is necessary for his salvation and he then fails to enter the Church, he will condemn himself; but if he is invincibly ignorant of this fact, he may lack culpability for his failure to enter the Church, and so he still may be saved. Of course only God can know who is or is not invincibly ignorant, because only He can see the secrets of the heart.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Jul 14 2005, 07:44 PM']"Are we are in the covenant or not? If not, we are pagans and are in know way saved. If we are, we are part of the Church, and thus not infallible."
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I'm not sure I fully understand what this phrase is meant to convey, because the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises. It is a rather disjointed statement.

[Laudate_Dominum]

"Love is the answer."

[i]This is going to be my canned response to every question from now on.[/i]

[goldenchild17]

Okay, one question at a time. Are Protestant churches, as result of their water baptism, a part of the covenant of God in the Catholic Church albeit in an imperfect way?

[phatcatholic]

LD!!! OMG! i freakin missed you dude, where have you been?!?!

Edited July 15, 2005 by phatcatholic

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jul 15 2005, 12:32 AM']"Love is the answer."

[i]This is going to be my canned response to every question from now on.[/i]
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Yes. This is what the Church teaches.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Jul 15 2005, 01:20 AM']Okay, one question at a time.  Are Protestant churches, as result of their water baptism, a part of the covenant of God in the Catholic Church albeit in an imperfect way?
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phaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatttt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How have you been? How has everything at phat mass been going? (sorry for hi-jacking this thread by the way.. well, sort of sorry ;-))

I've been struggling against "the dark side of the force" and just trying to accomplish some goals.. I just got broadband at my house so I imagine I'll be around again. :-)

alright, I'm sure we'll talk more later.

Cheers!

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Jul 15 2005, 01:20 AM']Okay, one question at a time.  Are Protestant churches, as result of their water baptism, a part of the covenant of God in the Catholic Church albeit in an imperfect way?
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a definition of terms is required here. if by "a part of the covenant of God" you mean "able to be saved", then you are either able or you aren't. there are no degrees as far as that is concerned. the "imperfection" you are referring to has to do with the degree w/ which someone is in communion w/ the Church.

of course, it depends on several things (your knowledge of Jesus Christ and His Church, how you live your life, ect...), but anyone can be saved. the Church however, is the surest means with which to obtain that end. you find yourself in an increasingly precarious position the farther you drift from the Church.

[phatcatholic]

hehe, LD, goldenchild butted in and ruined our party.....

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Jul 14 2005, 11:20 PM']Okay, one question at a time.  Are Protestant churches, as result of their water baptism, a part of the covenant of God in the Catholic Church albeit in an imperfect way?
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Yes, Protestants, if they are validly baptized, are brought into communion (an imperfect communion) with the Catholic Church through the sacrament of baptism.

P.S. - I read through part of the thread you're involved in, and there were some posts that spoke about the Eastern Churches, and the great schism that occurred in the 11th century. But what wasn't mentioned was the fact that not all of the Eastern Churches are in schism.

I myself am a member of an Eastern Church that is in full communion with the Pope. Eastern (Byzantine) Catholics practice all of the various theological and liturgical traditions of the East, and yet they are in full communion with the Bishop of Rome.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jul 15 2005, 01:34 AM']hehe, LD, goldenchild butted in and ruined our party.....
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ach!... typical.. typical..

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 15 2005, 01:38 AM']Yes, Protestants, if they are validly baptized, are brought into communion (an imperfect communion) with the Catholic Church through the sacrament of baptism.

P.S. - I read through part of the thread you're involved in, and there were some posts that spoke about the Eastern Churches, and the great schism that occurred in the 11th century.  But what wasn't mentioned was the fact that not all of the Eastern Churches are in schism. 

I myself am a member of an Eastern Church that is in full communion with the Pope.  Eastern (Byzantine) Catholics practice all of the various theological and liturgical traditions of the East, and yet they are in full communion with the Bishop of Rome.
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Well I, SIR, am a bonafide member of the First Apostolic, Praised be Jesus Christ, Power House Church! And I, SIR, am in communion with Jesus Christ!! Amen. I am saved, Alleluia.

j/k How have you been my friend!!!?? Still haven't met you.. maybe this coming semester.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jul 15 2005, 01:41 AM']ach!... typical.. typical..
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don't worry, we'll party in the [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=26752&st=450"][b]To Phatcatholic thread[/b][/url]

[Laudate_Dominum]

heck ya

are the texan girls still around? Meaning flowery and tina.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jul 14 2005, 11:44 PM']Well I, SIR, am a bonafide member of the First  Apostolic, Praised be Jesus Christ, Power House Church! And I, SIR, am in communion with Jesus Christ!!  Amen. I am saved, Alleluia.

j/k How have you been my friend!!!?? Still haven't met you.. maybe this coming semester.
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I knew in my heart that you were really a Pentecostal.

I am well, and I'm enjoying my time in California.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 15 2005, 01:38 AM']Yes, Protestants, if they are validly baptized, are brought into communion (an imperfect communion) with the Catholic Church through the sacrament of baptism.

P.S. - I read through part of the thread you're involved in, and there were some posts that spoke about the Eastern Churches, and the great schism that occurred in the 11th century.  But what wasn't mentioned was the fact that not all of the Eastern Churches are in schism. 

I myself am a member of an Eastern Church that is in full communion with the Pope.  Eastern (Byzantine) Catholics practice all of the various theological and liturgical traditions of the East, and yet they are in full communion with the Bishop of Rome.
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I know yeah. I should probably mention that. I just don't want to make things any more confusing at this point yet.

If you read through that discussion, do you understand what I'm getting at?

If Protestants attain a communion(albeit imperfect) with the Church through baptism, then please explain to me how heresy has not been made a part of the Church, IF they are in a sort of communion then we SORT OF have heresy within the Church(by Church I mean Catholic Church). Explain how this can be, thanks.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jul 15 2005, 01:34 AM']hehe, LD, goldenchild butted in and ruined our party.....
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ah take you're party somewheres else, I was here first

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Jul 15 2005, 12:14 AM']I know yeah.  I should probably mention that.  I just don't want to make things any more confusing at this point yet.

If you read through that discussion, do you understand what I'm getting at?

If Protestants attain a communion(albeit imperfect) with the Church through baptism, then please explain to me how heresy has not been made a part of the Church, IF they are in a sort of communion then we SORT OF have heresy within the Church(by Church I mean Catholic Church).  Explain how this can be, thanks.
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The fact that they have a partial communion with the Church means that they are related to the Church, but of course they are not members of the Church because they are not in full communion with her. Being related to the Church is not the same thing as being a full member of the Church. Vatican II talks about this in [u]Lumen Gentium[/u] (cf. nos. 13-17), where it speaks of the different degrees of relation to the Catholic Church that can be experienced by individuals who, through no fault of their own, have not followed the impulse of grace and entered into full communion. In other words, it is the various errors in belief that cause the communion with the Church to be only partial. That is why there is no heresy in the Church, because the heresy is what is excluding the person from full communion.