Quick non-debate question

[Paladin D]

Ok, this is what I know. Grace saves us. But what does faith and works do? I'm confused if the "works" part stems from our faith, or what. I'm so confused, it's 1:48am EST, and I'm about to throw my PC out the window. Thanks in advance.

[SevenSorrows]

Ok, I don't know if you want a book, or quick answer...but check it.
- Grace is what gets us into heaven...like the key
- Faith is needed to get grace. Without faith, you can't have grace.
- Works...this is the cool part. If you ARE saved, then God will be working thru you....hence, you will have works. If you don't have works...then like James says...."we are dead". So works don't get you to heaven, but if you are going to heaven, you will have works...because works come thru grace and faith...they are like an afterproduct. You can tell if someone is saved by the works they are doing. The works don't save them...but since they ARE saved they WILL be doing works because once you are saved, God works thru you...(he puts you to work). So if you are doing works then that means God is working and you are saved. If you have no works, then God is NOT working thru you and you aren't saved.

Does that help?

[Paladin D]

[quote name='SevenSorrows' date='Jul 15 2005, 01:51 AM']Ok, I don't know if you want a book, or quick answer...but check it.
- Grace is what gets us into heaven...like the key
- Faith is needed to get grace.  Without faith, you can't have grace.
- Works...this is the cool part.  If you ARE saved, then God will be working thru you....hence, you will have works.  If you don't have works...then like James says...."we are dead".  So works don't get you to heaven, but if you are going to heaven, you will have works...because works come thru grace and faith...they are like an afterproduct.  You can tell if someone is saved by the works they are doing.  The works don't save them...but since they ARE saved they WILL be doing works because once you are saved, God works thru you...(he puts you to work).  So if you are doing works then that means God is working and you are saved.  If you have no works, then God is NOT working thru you and you aren't saved.

Does that help?
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YES!

I thought I had it wrong, but I had it correct after all. Because I heard an argument from a Protestant that "works are a result of our faith, therefore we are saved through faith", so I got confused if I was right or wrong.

So in a way, faith is what helps us get grace, while grace keeps us on the "saved" path, and works is a byproduct of all this, right?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='SevenSorrows' date='Jul 15 2005, 12:51 AM']Ok, I don't know if you want a book, or quick answer...but check it.
- Grace is what gets us into heaven...like the key
- Faith is needed to get grace.  Without faith, you can't have grace.
- Works...this is the cool part.  If you ARE saved, then God will be working thru you....hence, you will have works.  If you don't have works...then like James says...."we are dead".  So works don't get you to heaven, but if you are going to heaven, you will have works...because works come thru grace and faith...they are like an afterproduct.  You can tell if someone is saved by the works they are doing.  The works don't save them...but since they ARE saved they WILL be doing works because once you are saved, God works thru you...(he puts you to work).  So if you are doing works then that means God is working and you are saved.  If you have no works, then God is NOT working thru you and you aren't saved.

Does that help?
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Grace has priority (although it's an admitedly broad category); and in a sense our faith and works are manifestations of grace. One way to think of it is that faith and works are two arenas in which our intellect and will cooperate with grace and become perfected by it. Another way to put it is that faith and works are two manifestations or dimensions of mutual reciprocity in our love relationship and life with/in God. And we are at the same time passive and active in both of these manifestations of the life of grace..

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Jul 15 2005, 12:56 AM']YES!

I thought I had it wrong, but I had it correct after all.  Because I heard an argument from a Protestant that "works are a result of our faith, therefore we are saved through faith", so I got confused if I was right or wrong.

So in a way, faith is what helps us get grace, while grace keeps us on the "saved" path, and works is a byproduct of all this, right?
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In a qualified sense this statement is true. But I would stress the priority of grace. Faith is a grace. St Peter made his profession of faith (Mt 16) because the Father had given it to him. And the disciples asked Our Lord to increase their faith, etc..
Faith pertains to supernatural realities, toward which we cannot fully grasp with our reason apart from God's own act toward us.

I don't mean to make faith sound synonymous with mere intellectual assent. Faith involves the whole person, not some artificial, logical distinction of faculty psychology.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='SevenSorrows' date='Jul 15 2005, 01:51 AM']- Faith is needed to get grace.  Without faith, you can't have grace.
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I would reverse this statement:

Grace is needed to get faith. Without grace, you can't have faith.

I think that's the view of St. Thomas Aquinas. Maybe some of the scholars could comment.

[SevenSorrows]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Jul 14 2005, 10:56 PM']YES!

I thought I had it wrong, but I had it correct after all.  Because I heard an argument from a Protestant that "works are a result of our faith, therefore we are saved through faith", so I got confused if I was right or wrong.

So in a way, faith is what helps us get grace, while grace keeps us on the "saved" path, and works is a byproduct of all this, right?
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yeah exactly.

So again...if you REALLY had faith, then you would have works. So if you claim to believe/love jesus/be saved, then works will be coming forth thru Christ's grace.

So what have you been working on???? :bugeyes: hahaha j/k

[photosynthesis]

what about baptism?

[Paladin D]

What I'm confused is, many Protestants have the same view with the faith and works thing. Works are a result from one's faith, and if you have no works, your faith is dead.

My eyes hurt, and it's 2:12am EST, I'm going to bed. One reason I probally won't be a priest, I would accidentily teach heresy!

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Jul 15 2005, 01:12 AM']What I'm confused is, many Protestants have the same view with the faith and works thing.  Works are a result from one's faith, and if you have no works, your faith is dead.

My eyes hurt, and it's 2:12am EST, I'm going to bed.  One reason I probally won't be a priest, I would accidentily teach heresy!
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Those must be the protestants who actually read the letter of St. James.

[Laudate_Dominum]

alright, that was a tad snide and unfair. my apologies.

[Paladin D]

I must be taken this out of context, because I got that from Catholic.com, pretty much implying how that position is wrong. I don't know.


[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9909chap.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9909chap.asp[/url]

[i]If Protestants try to put Catholics on the defensive using Ephesians 2:8-9, they themselves are put on the defensive when Catholics cite James 2:24. Protestants are known their slogan stating that we are justified by "faith alone," but the expression "faith alone" only appears once in the Bible-in James 2:24-where it is rejected. This is a burr under the saddle of Protestants, for if they want to use terms the way the Bible does, they would have to give up their chief slogan.

When Catholics point this out, many Protestants attempt damage control by attacking the faith being discussed in James 2, saying it is an inferior or bad faith. Some do this by labeling it "dead faith." They treat "faith without works is dead" (vv. 17, 26) as if it were a definition and say, "If faith does not produce works then it is dead faith. It is this dead faith that James says won't save us."[/i]

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Jul 15 2005, 01:20 AM']I must be taken this out of context, because I got that from Catholic.com, pretty much implying how that position is wrong.  I don't know. 
[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9909chap.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9909chap.asp[/url]

[i]If Protestants try to put Catholics on the defensive using Ephesians 2:8-9, they themselves are put on the defensive when Catholics cite James 2:24. Protestants are known their slogan stating that we are justified by "faith alone," but the expression "faith alone" only appears once in the Bible-in James 2:24-where it is rejected. This is a burr under the saddle of Protestants, for if they want to use terms the way the Bible does, they would have to give up their chief slogan.

When Catholics point this out, many Protestants attempt damage control by attacking the faith being discussed in James 2, saying it is an inferior or bad faith. Some do this by labeling it "dead faith." They treat "faith without works is dead" (vv. 17, 26) as if it were a definition and say, "If faith does not produce works then it is dead faith. It is this dead faith that James says won't save us."[/i]
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Could you elaborate? I don't see a problem with this snippet.

[SevenSorrows]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Jul 14 2005, 11:20 PM']I must be taken this out of context, because I got that from Catholic.com, pretty much implying how that position is wrong.  I don't know. 
[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9909chap.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9909chap.asp[/url]

[i]If Protestants try to put Catholics on the defensive using Ephesians 2:8-9, they themselves are put on the defensive when Catholics cite James 2:24. Protestants are known their slogan stating that we are justified by "faith alone," but the expression "faith alone" only appears once in the Bible-in James 2:24-where it is rejected. This is a burr under the saddle of Protestants, for if they want to use terms the way the Bible does, they would have to give up their chief slogan.

When Catholics point this out, many Protestants attempt damage control by attacking the faith being discussed in James 2, saying it is an inferior or bad faith. Some do this by labeling it "dead faith." They treat "faith without works is dead" (vv. 17, 26) as if it were a definition and say, "If faith does not produce works then it is dead faith. It is this dead faith that James says won't save us."[/i]
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they are just saying watch out for protestants trying to flip the arguement. Don't let them flip it trying to say "of course dead faith won't save you". Cath Answers is saying make them stick to the topic that IF YOU DON"T HAVE WORKS...YOUR ARE NOT SAVED. Yes that would also mean our faith is dead....but just keep them on topic, that WE NEED works.

Don't worry bro..you are right...you understand it. You are doing awesome.