Vatican 2 questions

[goldenchild17]

Just a couple of questions I have. I'll start with this one>

What is the level of infallibility placed on Vatican II? Is the whole council have the same level of infallibility, or do the different documents have different levels?

[Laudate_Dominum]

I'm not really qualified to answer that question in depth, but I will point out that infallibility pertains to definitive teachings on matters of faith and morals. Much of Vatican II is outside the scope of what can called doctrine in the strict sense. However, the Holy Spirit guides the Church in a more general sense (especially in the context of a council), so it is safe to say that the more pastoral and disciplinary aspects of the council are legitimate applications and interpretations of Catholicity in our current context.

I realize many a traditionalist would beef with me on this policy, or that "novel innovation", but the fact is, Vatican II was an ecumenical council (all the Bishops, ratified by the Supreme Pontiff, etc..), and if I would dare to challenge the Church, I suppose next I would dare to challenge Christ Himself... I don't think so.

[goldenchild17]

Okay, so it was an ecumenical council basically guiding the whole Church?

Does this go for all the documents of Vatican II? What about "SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM
Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy" Does it apply here as well?

Sorry for the initial questions, but I'll get to my point eventually.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Jul 14 2005, 11:15 PM']What is the level of infallibility placed on Vatican II?
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Some of the teachings of the Second Vatican Council (cf. [u]Lumen Gentium[/u], nos. 18-27; and [u]Dei Verbum[/u], no. 9, no. 10, no. 11, etc.) are definitive. None of the teachings of Vatican II were proposed in a solemn manner by the Extraordinary Magisterium, but as I indicated, some of the teachings have been infallibly proposed by the Ordinary Magisterium of the Fathers of the Council.

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Jul 14 2005, 11:15 PM']Is the whole council have the same level of infallibility, or do the different documents have different levels?
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No, not everything proposed by the Second Vatican Council is infallible; instead, only those parts are infallible which the Council Fathers, through a non-defining act of the Ordinary Magisterium, proposed as definitive (cf. [u]Lumen Gentium[/u], nos. 18-27; and [u]Dei Verbum[/u], no. 9, no. 10, no. 11, etc.).

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Jul 15 2005, 12:08 AM']Okay, so it was an ecumenical council basically guiding the whole Church?
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An ecumenical council teaches authoritatively even when it is not proposing doctrines infallibly. Moreover, it can establish norms and directives for governing the Church's life.

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Jul 15 2005, 12:08 AM']Does this go for all the documents of Vatican II?  What about "SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM
Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy"  Does it apply here as well?
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Disciplinary canons and prudential matters are not proposed infallibly by an ecumenical council, because they are not even the proper subject matter for a definitive pronouncement. They are by their very nature contingent, i.e., they are changeable, and the proper ecclesiastical authorities can alter them if it is deemed necessary for the good of the Church.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 15 2005, 02:31 AM']Disciplinary canons and prudential matters are not proposed infallibly by an ecumenical council, because they are not even the proper subject matter for a definitive pronouncement.  They are by their very nature contingent, i.e., they are changeable, and the proper ecclesiastical authorities can alter them if it is deemed necessary for the good of the Church.
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Okay, they can change when the change is authorized by the Vatican, correct?

If this document was in Vatican II, and if Vatican II was an ecumenical council(therefore authoritative) then what is presented in that document(SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM) should be obeyed by all the Catholic Church's, correct? Well actually I think this document specified that this was only to take place in the Roman rite but I may be mistaken.

But still, is this right? Should all applicable church's and diocese's have to follow the precepts of the document, at least until Rome makes new changes?

[Laudate_Dominum]

Come on Todd. We shouldn't worry about the letter, it's the spirit that matters. Forget about rules and rubrics and embrace the true "spirit of Vatican II". Come over tomorrow, I'll be celebrating the Lord's Supper in my boxers and ordaining my ex girlfriend! Power to the people bro, that's what Vatican II was all about.

Alright, maybe I'm going too far with the cheap humour. But at an old parish of mine the generic response to any criticism of a wild, liberal no-no was, "c'mon, ever heard of Vatican II man?".

When I finally got around to reading the Vatican II documents, I was pleasantly surprised by the lack of mention of priestesses in rainbow vestments singing "Hey Mr. Tamborine Man".

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jul 15 2005, 02:46 AM']When I finally got around to reading the Vatican II documents, I was pleasantly surprised by the lack of mention of priestesses in rainbow vestments singing "Hey Mr. Tamborine Man".
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yeah well that's kind of why I'm starting to ask these questions. I'm starting to read the documents now, interesting stuff.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Jul 15 2005, 12:45 AM']Okay, they can change when the change is authorized by the Vatican, correct?

If this document was in Vatican II, and if Vatican II was an ecumenical council(therefore authoritative) then what is presented in that document(SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM) should be obeyed by all the Catholic Church's, correct?  Well actually I think this document specified that this was only to take place in the Roman rite but I may be mistaken.

But still, is this right?  Should all applicable church's and diocese's have to follow the precepts of the document, at least until Rome makes new changes?
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The directives found in [u]Sacrosanctum Concilium[/u] are binding on the Latin Rite, but the proper ecclesiastical authorities (primarily the Apostolic See) can alter the liturgical directives in that document if it is thought to be necessary for the good of the Church. As a case in point, Sacrosanctum Concilium did not order the use of the vernacular to the degree that it is presently used in the Roman Rite, but later decisions of Pope Paul VI expanded the use of the vernacular languages in the liturgy of the Roman Rite, and it was perfectly within his right to do that.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 15 2005, 02:52 AM']The directives found in [u]Sacrosanctum Concilium[/u] are binding on the Latin Rite, but the proper ecclesiastical authorities (primarily the Apostolic See) can alter the liturgical directives in that document if it is thought to be necessary for the good of the Church.  As a case in point, Sacrosanctum Concilium did not order the use of the vernacular to the degree that it is presently used in the Roman Rite, but later decisions of Pope Paul VI expanded the use of the vernacular languages in the liturgy of the Roman Rite, and it was perfectly within his right to do that.
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Okay, I think I've got it now. That document is binding on the Latin Rite until new directives are made. That leads into my main concerns.

What were these later decisions by Pope Paul VI and where can I read them?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jul 15 2005, 12:46 AM']Come on Todd. We shouldn't worry about the letter, it's the spirit that matters. Forget about rules and rubrics and embrace the true "spirit of Vatican II". Come over tomorrow, I'll be celebrating the Lord's Supper in my boxers and ordaining my ex girlfriend! Power to the people bro, that's what Vatican II was all about.

Alright, maybe I'm going too far with the cheap humour. But at an old parish of mine the generic response to any criticism of a wild, liberal no-no was, "c'mon, ever heard of Vatican II man?".

When I finally got around to reading the Vatican II documents, I was pleasantly surprised by the lack of mention of priestesses in rainbow vestments singing "Hey Mr. Tamborine Man".
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I knew you were a Pentecostal.

:shame:

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Jul 15 2005, 12:55 AM']Okay, I think I've got it now.  That document is binding on the Latin Rite until new directives are made.  That leads into my main concerns.

What were these later decisions by Pope Paul VI and where can I read them?
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There really are too many to list them all, but here are a few.

The expansion of the use of the vernacular languages, the suppression of the minor orders and the creation of the instituted ministries of the acolytate and the lectorate, the issuance of the new Roman Missal, etc., along with various indults (e.g., permitting communion in the hand, the use of extraordinary ministers, etc.).

[goldenchild17]

Is there a document where all this is recorded?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 15 2005, 02:55 AM']I knew you were a Pentecostal.

:shame:
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For the record: I would rather eat bantha fodder for the rest of my life than betray the faith of our fathers.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Jul 15 2005, 01:02 AM']Is there a document where all this is recorded?
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There is a giant book called [u]Documents on the Liturgy 1963-1979: Conciliar, Papal, and Curial Texts[/u], which contains a large part of the documents issued in order to reform the Roman Rite liturgy.