too liberal yet too conservative

[Cam42]

Hey hot stuff......have I ever been accused of being too liberal in one moment and too conservative in the next?

[morostheos]

It happens to us all....

[|gnat|]

[quote]Liberalism is a sin and has been condemned by past popes. It's the root of heresies. I dont believe there is an"exceptional" liberalism.[/quote]

You shouldn't generalize like that. You realize that Jesus was a radical, right? Have you ever heard of Dorothy Day? She was one of the most devout Catholics, as well as an anarchist. Are you telling me she was a sinner for simply being socially progressive? Oscar Romero is another great example of a "liberal".

It is perfectly acceptable to be an orthodox Catholic and at the same time be socially radical/progressive.

Edited July 19, 2005 by |gnat|

[Mrvoll]

Religously I would be centred

[Socrates]

[quote name='|gnat|' date='Jul 19 2005, 06:44 PM']You shouldn't generalize like that.  You realize that Jesus was a radical, right?  Have you ever heard of Dorothy Day?  She was one of the most devout Catholics, as well as an anarchist.  Are you telling me she was a sinner for simply being socially progressive?  Oscar Romero is another great example of a "liberal".

It is perfectly acceptable to be an orthodox Catholic and at the same time be socially  radical/progressive.
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Jesus was hardly a political "radical." That's a false theory of liberation theologians and others who want to reduce Christ's message to a political one.

And just because one is a devout Catholic, does not mean he cannot be mistaken in his political views (as I sincerely beleive Day and co. were).

[|gnat|]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 19 2005, 08:02 PM']Jesus was hardly a political "radical."  That's a false theory of liberation theologians and others who want to reduce Christ's message to a political one.

And just because one is a devout Catholic, does not mean he cannot be mistaken in his political views (as I sincerely beleive Day and co. were).
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First off, I didn't say he was a political radical. Overall, however, I think it is obvious that he was a social one. It that is not evident to you, I will explain it later.

Are you one of those people that shudders when they hear the words "communism" or "anarchy"? I don't want your misconceptions about those two words getting mixed up in this discussion.

Before you call people "mistaken", you should take the time to see why they believe what they do, and exactly what is is they believe.

[Socrates]

[quote name='|gnat|' date='Jul 19 2005, 07:30 PM']First off, I didn't say he was a political radical.  Overall, however, I think it is obvious that he was a social one.  It that is not evident to you, I will explain it later.

Are you one of those people that shudders when they hear the words "communism" or "anarchy"?  I don't want your misconceptions about those two words getting mixed up in this discussion.

Before you call people "mistaken", you should take the time to see why they believe what they do, and exactly what is is they believe.
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1) It depends on what you mean by "social radical." It is not evident that he was a "social radical" in usual "Lefty" sense of this word.

2) It's more like I groan whenever I hear some "Catholic" arguing for Communism. It is a godless, failed system, that has been responsible for more misery, murder, and suffering than any other government system in the history of the world. It has been repeatedly condemned by the Church. And I don't buy the "it would be good if the right people were running it" thing.

And anarchism is just stupid and wouldn't work. Anarchy is a state of intrisinsic chaos which cannot last. SOMEONE will end up seizing power over others.

[BeenaBobba]

When it comes to religion, I think I'm orthodox. I believe everything the Church teaches. When it comes to politics, I'm pretty moderate. I'm vehemently against abortion and gay "marriage," but I also oppose the death penalty and the current war.

[|gnat|]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 19 2005, 08:41 PM']2)  It's more like I groan whenever I hear some "Catholic" arguing for Communism.  It is a godless, failed system, that has been responsible for more misery, murder, and suffering than any other government system in the history of the world.  It has been repeatedly condemned by the Church.  And I don't buy the "it would be good if the right people were running it" thing.
[/quote]
You know how many people have been killed or shoved into poverty and despair by the capitalist market system?

[quote]And anarchism is just stupid and wouldn't work.  Anarchy is a state of intrisinsic chaos which cannot last.  SOMEONE will end up seizing power over others.
[/quote]

I'm glad you know so much about anarchy, seeing as how it has been used before .

Why are you making assumptions based on no experience?

Furthermore, it is not an intrinsic state of chaos, rather, one of cooperation and equality.

Edited July 20, 2005 by |gnat|

[shelly_freak]

Man do I feel ya. I consider myself a catholic liberal which most people don't get but who cares, it's who I am.

[Socrates]

[quote name='|gnat|' date='Jul 19 2005, 07:49 PM']You know how many people have been killed or shoved into poverty and despair by the capitalist market system? 
I'm glad you know so much about anarchy, seeing as how it has been used before .

Why are you making assumptions based on no experience?

Furthermore, it is not an intrinsic state of chaos, rather, one of cooperation and equality.
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Obviously, you've got some serious reading up to do on history. In 74 years, [b]at least 20 million people [/b]were murdered by Communist rule [b]in the Soviet Union alone[/b]. Estimates for people murdered by Communism world-wide range from 70 million to 100 million.
This is not to mention the well-documented torture, poverty, and religious oppression which occured under Communists regimes throughout the world.
Militant atheism was part of Karl Marx's basis for Communist theory.

(Your aging Marxist profs probably didn't teach you this in your college though.)

To say the "capitalist market system" is equivilent to Communism shows profound ignorance!

Indeed, I've had no experience of an "anarchist" system. Have you? Has anybody? It's an ideal that never existed and can't work in real life.

[MC Just]

[quote name='|gnat|' date='Jul 19 2005, 06:44 PM']You shouldn't generalize like that.  You realize that Jesus was a radical, right?  Have you ever heard of Dorothy Day?  She was one of the most devout Catholics, as well as an anarchist.  Are you telling me she was a sinner for simply being socially progressive?  Oscar Romero is another great example of a "liberal".

It is perfectly acceptable to be an orthodox Catholic and at the same time be socially  radical/progressive.
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So the modern mind says. It has been condemned by past popes. There is plenty of evidence that liberalism is destructive and very much not CATHOLIC.

Jesus was not liberal, but that interpretation is. All shades of liberalism have been condemned by the Popes. I'm ultramontane and I choose not to be fooled.

[|gnat|]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 19 2005, 09:02 PM']Obviously, you've got some serious reading up to do on history.  In 74 years, [b]at least 20 million people [/b]were murdered by Communist rule [b]in the Soviet Union alone[/b].  Estimates for people murdered by Communism world-wide range from 70 million to 100 million.
This is not to mention the well-documented torture, poverty, and religious oppression which occured under Communists regimes throughout the world.
Militant atheism was part of Karl Marx's basis for Communist theory.
[/quote]

You should head you own advice and read some things on communism, and realize that no nation has ever been a truly communistic society. Not Cuba, not North Korea, not China (especially today), and most definately not the USSR. Cuba is at best socialist. Stalin for the most part was a state-capitalist. China taxes its citizens at roughly 11%. The US collects roughly 33%.

Do you know that communism and direct democracy can co-exist?

And as far as the deaths, here is just a little food for though:

[quote]According to the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, more than 25,000 people die of starvation every day, more than 800 million people are chronically undernourished.[/quote]

How many people have died because capitalist governments were too selfish to care about the needs of people? Why do you think Africa is so messed up? Imperialism and Capitalism play a very, very large role.

[quote]To say the "capitalist market system" is equivilent to Communism shows profound ignorance![/quote]

Yes, because its not like they're both forms of economic systems.

[quote]Indeed, I've had no experience of an "anarchist" system.  Have you?  Has anybody?  It's an ideal that never existed and can't work in real life.
[/quote]

Then why are you so quick to dismiss it?

[|gnat|]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Jul 19 2005, 09:06 PM']So the modern mind says. It has been condemned by past popes. There is plenty of evidence that liberalism is destructive and very much not CATHOLIC. 

Jesus was not liberal, but that interpretation is.  All shades of liberalism have been condemned by the Popes.  I'm ultramontane and I choose not to be fooled.
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www.dictionary.com

Liberal: Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.

That sounds like Jesus to me. Love and Peace weren't very popular ideas at the time of his coming.

Radical: Departing markedly from the usual or customary; extreme

That also sounds like Jesus Christ. He was certainly not customary or usual.

[Socrates]

[quote name='|gnat|' date='Jul 19 2005, 08:28 PM']You should head you own advice and read some things on communism, and realize that no nation has ever been a truly communistic society. Not Cuba, not North Korea, not China (especially today), and most definately not the USSR.  Cuba is at best socialist.  Stalin for the most part was a state-capitalist.  China  taxes its citizens at roughly 11%.  The US collects roughly 33%.[/quote]

Are you saying the Communist countries should have been MORE COMMUNIST??? China today is not really economically communist, because the Chinese learned the lesson that a capitalist market creates wealth, and did not want to suffer the fate of the USSR. However, they still practice Communist totalitarianism and religious oppression.
The stuff about the USSR being "capitalist" is BS. Show me some proof.

I recomend you read [i]The Rise And Fall of the Communist Revolution[/i], by Dr. Warren H, Carroll, if you want a complete history of Communism. I guarantee when you finish that, you won't be thinking Communism is cool and compatible with Christ.

I've got a B.A. in History and have taken courses on the history of communism.

[quote]Do you know that communism and direct democracy can co-exist?
[/quote]

It's never happened on a state scale. In practice, communism has always been one official party ruling and rigidly controlling everyone else.

[quote]And as far as the deaths, here is just a little food for though:
How many people have died because capitalist governments were too selfish to care about the needs of people?  Why do you think Africa is so messed up?  Imperialism and Capitalism play a very, very large role.
Yes, because its not like they're both forms of economic systems.
Then why are you so quick to dismiss it?
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Your blaming Africa's starfvation and other problems on "capitalism" is absurd. Africa's problems are from corrupt governments, brutal wars, and underdeveloped economies. You're just feeding me Lefty propaganda.

The purges, gulags, and forced starvations under communism are documented historical facts.

I'm quick to dismiss it, because it has been tried for almost a hundred years, and has failed miserably.

And because Communism is opposed to Christ and religion, and has been repeatedly condemned by the Catholic Church.

[ReinnieR]

i'm rei

[DeeDee]

It's amazing how many people misunderstand the concept of anarchy. Anarchy does not mean chaos nor do anarchists seek to create chaos or disorder. Instead, the idea is to create a society based upon individual freedom and voluntary co-operation. In other words, order from the bottom up, not disorder imposed from the top down by authorities. Such a society would be a true anarchy, a society without rulers. This is an ideal, and will probably never be realized in our lifetime, if ever, because people are not that responsible nor do they act in co-operation with each other to produce order.

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 19 2005, 05:41 PM']1) It depends on what you mean by "social radical."  It is not evident that he was a "social radical" in usual "Lefty" sense of this word.

2)  It's more like I groan whenever I hear some "Catholic" arguing for Communism.  It is a godless, failed system, that has been responsible for more misery, murder, and suffering than any other government system in the history of the world.  It has been repeatedly condemned by the Church.  And I don't buy the "it would be good if the right people were running it" thing.

And anarchism is just stupid and wouldn't work.  Anarchy is a state of intrisinsic chaos which cannot last.  SOMEONE will end up seizing power over others.
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[popestpiusx]

[quote name='thedude' date='Jul 19 2005, 04:05 PM']I've been called a "Modernist" and "pre-Vatican II".
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So have I, while believeing exactly what I believe now. Very intertaining.

[MC Just]

Liberal and conservative are not just political terms.

Liberal: Left-foolish, lacking moral restraint, not bound by authoritarianism, tradition or orthodoxy. In other words Pagan.

Conservative:Right-Wise, marked by caution, wanting to maintain existing views, traditional, orhtodox, bound by authority. In other words Catholic.

Ecclesiates 10:2.

[MC Just]

im gonna flip if one more person calls Jesus a liberal. lol