bx_racer Posted July 20, 2005 Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Jul 20 2005, 11:52 AM']Intent is part of sin, you might be guilty of unjust anger, but since you didn't go through with the sin, then you are not guilty of that sin.... now, say if you were locked up for the rest of your life and you wanted to kill your sister and you died wanting to kill your sister, then you would be guilty of the sin. Not sure what sin that you are in a dilemma with, but if it involves someone else, remember that we must forgive everything and everyone if we want to be forgiven by God when we die.... this includes the most horrible sins against us.... this includes people like Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, John Kerry, Bill Clinton, Howard Stern, my mother in law, etc... God Bless! ironmonk [right][snapback]651120[/snapback][/right] [/quote] yeah u forgot cheap people who kick you out of skate spots. i hope none of you guys are like that.
Quietfire Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 Wrong. Interiorly she is guilty. Therefore, it is a formal sin. She may not have committed the act, which would have been a material sin, but she committed a formal sin. A person [i]can[/i] commit a sin interiorly without actually doing it outwardly. If a person decided that they are going to kill someone, made up their mind (Yeah, Im gonna kill my sister) and then 'got interrupted'...it is still a sin of murder(formal). The fact that she decided not to do it is not enough, since it was never specified in her post as to why she decided not to. She only stated that the phone rang and interrupted her. In her mind, she killed her sister, yet outwardly she didnt. One is guilty of the sin the moment one makes up their mind to commit the sin-choosing self over God- even though actually she didnt get the chance or later changed her mind. Even a changed mind cannot wipe out sin. If a man today decided today to commit murder tomorrow and then tomorrow had a change of heart and decided not to - there still would be yesterdays mortal sin upon his soul. Todays's good resolution cannot wipe out yesterdays evil intent. We are supposing , of course, that his mind in the first instance was definitely made up. We are not talking here of a person who may be undergoing severe temptation, a person who may struggle with himself for hours or even days. If such a person finally gains the victory over self and says a definite "NO!" to the temptation, he has committed no sin. I am only going by the original post, I cannot and will not read any more into it that what she stated and by her words in that post alone, she is guilty of a formal sin. So its off to the confessional. Pax.
Semperviva Posted July 21, 2005 Author Posted July 21, 2005 [quote name='Quietfire' date='Jul 21 2005, 11:26 AM']Wrong. Interiorly she is guilty. Therefore, it is a formal sin. She may not have committed the act, which would have been a material sin, but she committed a formal sin. A person [i]can[/i] commit a sin interiorly without actually doing it outwardly. If a person decided that they are going to kill someone, made up their mind (Yeah, Im gonna kill my sister) and then 'got interrupted'...it is still a sin of murder(formal). The fact that she decided not to do it is not enough, since it was never specified in her post as to why she decided not to. She only stated that the phone rang and interrupted her. In her mind, she killed her sister, yet outwardly she didnt. One is guilty of the sin the moment one makes up their mind to commit the sin-choosing self over God- even though actually she didnt get the chance or later changed her mind. Even a changed mind cannot wipe out sin. If a man today decided today to commit murder tomorrow and then tomorrow had a change of heart and decided not to - there still would be yesterdays mortal sin upon his soul. Todays's good resolution cannot wipe out yesterdays evil intent. We are supposing , of course, that his mind in the first instance was definitely made up. We are not talking here of a person who may be undergoing severe temptation, a person who may struggle with himself for hours or even days. If such a person finally gains the victory over self and says a definite "NO!" to the temptation, he has committed no sin. I am only going by the original post, I cannot and will not read any more into it that what she stated and by her words in that post alone, she is guilty of a formal sin. So its off to the confessional. Pax. [right][snapback]652607[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [i] hmm ok well during and after the phone call i think, hhhmm, this isin't really worth it, no this is wrong, no, nevermind...like that.....so it sound like this is what happened in the situation u described...woohoo[/i]
Pilgrim Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Quietfire' date='Jul 21 2005, 11:26 AM']Wrong. Interiorly she is guilty. Therefore, it is a formal sin. She may not have committed the act, which would have been a material sin, but she committed a formal sin. A person [i]can[/i] commit a sin interiorly without actually doing it outwardly. If a person decided that they are going to kill someone, made up their mind (Yeah, Im gonna kill my sister) and then 'got interrupted'...it is still a sin of murder(formal). [right][snapback]652607[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Sorry to say it, but you haven't convinced me. Find a justification for your position in the Catechism, then I might be swayed. Otherwise, I don't think I'm out of line by saying that in order for a person to be [i]guilty [/i]of the sin of murder, the person must have actually [i]committed [/i]the act of murder. Murder is a mortal sin because it involves the death of another person -- no death, no mortal sin. She is indeed guilty of a sin, but not the mortal sin of murder. [quote] [b]CCC[/b]: 2268 The fifth commandment forbids [i]direct [/i]and [i]intentional [/i]killing as gravely sinful. The murderer and those who cooperate voluntarily in murder commit a sin that cries out to heaven for vengeance. [/quote] Edited July 21, 2005 by Pilgrim
Quietfire Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 (edited) eh,eh,eh. I did not say mortal sin of murder.(material)=actually killed her sister outwardly. I said murder(formal).= interiorly killed her sister and resolved to do it outwardly. In her mind, she killed her sister. In her mind, her sister was dead by her own hands. This is premeditated, this is the sin. Because of the gravity of this thought, it should be told to a priest. Dont have my Catachism but Im pretty sure. I will check on it. Look, were not talking about getting angry with sis and thinking, "wish you were dead" kinda thoughts. I am only going by her original post. Pax Edited July 21, 2005 by Quietfire
Quietfire Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 The Catachism does not delve into this aspect. But it does say, II. The Definition of Sin 1849 [b]Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience[/b]; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. [b]It has been defined as "an utterance, a deed, or a [i]desire[/i] contrary to the eternal law."[/b]121 Even when we repent we must do so interiorly: Conversion requires convincing of sin; it includes the interior judgment of conscience, and this, being a proof of the action of the Spirit of truth in man's inmost being, becomes at the same time the start of a new grant of grace and love: "Receive the Holy Spirit." Thus in this "convincing concerning sin" we discover a double gift: the gift of the truth of conscience and the gift of the certainty of redemption. The Spirit of truth is the Consoler.120
Quietfire Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 Maybe asking a priest to read this thread would help. Just to settle whether or not a sin has been committed. Pax
Catholic Fanatic Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 (edited) [quote]if the person would have stopped on their own just before the act then they would not be guilty... if they had the real intent on killing, then the phone would not have stopped him and/or he would have killed her right after the call. Changing of the mind from murder is repenting, doesn't matter what causes someone to change their mind. [/quote] A person is guilty of murder if they have the intent to kill. If the person changes their mind before killing, they have repented from murder. I agree the person in the hypothetical has repented. The reason I mentioned the person must repent is show the grave nature of the situation and to knock some sense into you people: A person who desires and intends to kill has *committed* the desire and intent to kill. The CCC says that it must be direct and intentional because often times people kill others not directly and intentionally, such as in abortion issues and other things. Those who we are talking about have commited the direct and intentional desire/intent to kill, which is just as bad as killing in Terrible Judge's Just Judgement. Quietfire has it right to show the desire passage, and we're not just talking about sex type things here. [quote]This Fanatic fellow's rather interesting. He recently condemned me to hell for not properly heeding his words regarding penis pills. [/quote] Come on people, get a clue. It's sad that liberalism at phatmass is going well beyond the protestants.. Edited July 21, 2005 by Catholic Fanatic
Catholic Fanatic Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 And make no mistake about it: such liberalism is a sin. Those who engage unrepented to death in liberalism are guilty and will be punished in the fires of hell, where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. They will not be released until they have paid the last penny.
bx_racer Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 alright i dont see how a political viewpoint will send you to hell
Aloysius Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 depending on how you define "liberalism", yes it is a sin. read the book Liberalismo es Pecado [url="http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/dissent/libissin.htm"]http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/dissent/libissin.htm[/url] however, CF defines liberalism erroneously to include MAKING FUN of the fact that size enhancement pills are a scam and a waste of anyone's time... liberalism is a sin but not humor [quote]"Liberalism is the dogmatic affirmation of the absolute independence of the individual and of the social reason. Catholicity is the dogma of the absolute subjection of the individual and of the social order to the revealed law of God. One doctrine is the exact antithesis of the other. They are opposites in direct conflict." (Ch. 6).[/quote]
qfnol31 Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 [quote name='Catholic Fanatic' date='Jul 20 2005, 01:07 PM']Let's not water things down people. This person would be guilty of the sin of murder. This person had the desire to kill the person and would have given how you described it. You were wishy washy in your desription, but you have said enough. If the killee was in front of the killer, the killee would have been murdered. Just like after a murder, you can decide it was not a good idea, after a would have murder, you can decide it was not a good idea. Jesus said, he who hates his brother is guilty of murder. If you wanted to kill someone, you must be angry with them, or at any rate you wanted to kill them. If this was you in the hyothetical, you would burn in the fires of hell, where there'd be wailing and gnashing of teeth, if you did not repent from the murder. You would not be released until you have paid the last penny. [right][snapback]651144[/snapback][/right] [/quote] You sound like a Thomist. That's good, because I am one. Thomas would say here that you have to separate two things: [b]1) The object of the exterior act of the will[/b] This refers to the actual act itself. There is a difference between the external and internal. [b]2) The object of the interior act of the will[/b] This refers to how the person perceives the act. This is separate from the act in that they can be different. I may donate money to the Church. You see a very good act. However, I may donate so that my boss will see it (who's sitting beside me) and possibly give me a bonus, which I want so I can go on a cruise for fun. There's evil in that act, in that the two don't line up. I made that distinction just so that you can see that the two are different, whereas you seem to want to make them the same. In this case the person would be guilty of ill thought towards a person, and may have wished the death of someone, but they are far less culpable since there was no actual murder. I doubt that it would even be a mortal sin because there was no action, just thought. And normally thought is less controllable than actions. Hope that clears up some confusion in here.
qfnol31 Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 By the way, true liberalism is not a sin. It's just been perverted.
Catholic Fanatic Posted July 22, 2005 Posted July 22, 2005 There are those here at phatmass who are on a one way ticket to hell. Sadly many know who you are. Don't say I didn't warn you. If I were to see you after this life, I would say, Depart from me you evildoer, into the fires created for the devil and his minions.
ironmonk Posted July 22, 2005 Posted July 22, 2005 [quote name='bx_racer' date='Jul 21 2005, 07:20 PM']alright i dont see how a political viewpoint will send you to hell [right][snapback]653213[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Liberalism here has to do with taking Catholic teaching from a "liberal" point of view... it other words twisting the meaning. For example, thinking it's ok to use condoms or birth control pills because sex is also for the bonding of the husband and wife is a liberal point of view - which is a twisting of the teaching to the point of error. Not as in politics. God Bless, ironmonk
ironmonk Posted July 22, 2005 Posted July 22, 2005 [quote name='Catholic Fanatic' date='Jul 21 2005, 11:49 PM']There are those here at phatmass who are on a one way ticket to hell. Sadly many know who you are. Don't say I didn't warn you. If I were to see you after this life, I would say, Depart from me you evildoer, into the fires created for the devil and his minions. [right][snapback]653579[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Bro, We don't know why they sin. We cannot see into their hearts... we can let them know that their souls are in grave danger, meaning that they could go to hell, but I do think you are going over the line a little with saying that they know they'll go to hell. Some of the people here are pretty young and have a lot of learning to do, their maturity is still developing and as they get closer to twenty five they should start to wise up. Remember, maybe they are the way that they are so that the Lord God can use them to show how great His mercy is. All we can do is try to convince them of where they are wrong and pray for them. Softly at first, but with time things need to get to the point. Sometimes we should try different approaches, but telling someone that they will go to hell will close them up... saying that their soul is in grave danger and why, might get through to them. Believe me, I understand how frustrating it can be when people turn their backs on Christ and they possibly can't realize what grave error they are commiting because it is spiritual suicide. We can lead horses to water, but we can't make them drink. Try not to take things to personally, and just pray for them. God Bless, ironmonk
bx_racer Posted July 22, 2005 Posted July 22, 2005 [quote name='Catholic Fanatic' date='Jul 21 2005, 08:49 PM']There are those here at phatmass who are on a one way ticket to hell. Sadly many know who you are. Don't say I didn't warn you. If I were to see you after this life, I would say, Depart from me you evildoer, into the fires created for the devil and his minions. [right][snapback]653579[/snapback][/right] [/quote] mmm how encouraging for them
Quietfire Posted July 22, 2005 Posted July 22, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Semperviva' date='Jul 20 2005, 01:39 PM']I don't know if anyone has ever brought this up before, but if a person has every intention of comnitting a sin, any sin, or maybe not every intention but has pretty much given over to the idea of sinning say i was like p yeah i think i'm gonna kill my sister now and then something interupts say actual grace disguised as a phone call or something haha... but seriously ... say you thought yes i'm pretty sure i am going to kill her but then you don't... and then after the phone call you decide not to and you look back and wonder if you haden't been interupted if you would re-decided sin is an act of the will and if I did will to kill her... am i guilty of the sin of murder??? but what if that was just step ONE of the reasoning that got interupted... [right][snapback]651103[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I didnt see any repentance in this post. Simply deciding not to commit the sin doesnt exclude you from the fact that you, in your heart, in your mind, committed the sin. This post simply stated that she decided not to...no reason. Not 'changed my mind' which would have indicated a possible change of heart=repentance. "decided not to" could mean many things. But since it wasnt explicit, we can only go by that. "actual grace disguised as a phone call" Well, yeah maybe God arranged for the call to distract you, to slow ya down, or to stop you altoghter. But the person doesnt actually realize that at this point, otherwise she may have stated it. Im still sticking with my original decision. Pax Edited July 22, 2005 by Quietfire
Semperviva Posted July 22, 2005 Author Posted July 22, 2005 ok- lol- to clarify reason not to= ulitmately not wanting to offend God, even though the orginal decision was to do so and commit the sin...but the ultimate decision was no... she is alive today
Quietfire Posted July 23, 2005 Posted July 23, 2005 (edited) Ok if I add your above post to your original statement then my next question is... "Reason not to-ultimately not wanting to offend God." Out of love or fear of eternal damnation. Your answer makes all the difference. If we change our mind because we love God so much that we see God in our neighbor (sister) and realizing that hurting neighbor is the same as hurting God Himself, then that is exceptable and good, and a just and perfect contrition. If we change our mind because we dont wish to offend God and have a fear that we will end up in hell, then that is not perfect contrition. ALL things must be done for love of God or it dont mean diddly. Pax Edited July 23, 2005 by Quietfire
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now