The Latin Mass

[qfnol31]

They were an idea of Pope Benedict in fact. They credit him with the idea of founding the order.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Mrvoll' date='Jul 26 2005, 05:30 PM']Would it be alright to recieve communion from an FSSP priest
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Absolutely.

[Cam42]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jul 26 2005, 07:29 PM']They were an idea of Pope Benedict in fact.  They credit him with the idea of founding the order.
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That is not exactly right. They credit Cardinal Ratzinger for getting them a home. There are a dozen priestly founders.

From the FSSP website:
[quote]The Fraternity was founded on July 18, 1988 at the Abbey of Hauterive (Switzerland) by a dozen priests and a score of seminarians.  Shortly after the Fraternity’s foundation and following upon a request by Cardinal Ratzinger, Bishop Joseph Stimpfle of Augsburg, Germany granted the Fraternity a home in Wigratzbad, a Marian shrine in Bavaria that now lodges the Fraternity’s European seminary.[/quote]

The founders are:

P. Josef Bisig
Abbé Ph. Tournyol du Clos
P. Gabriel Baumann
Abbé Christian Lafargue
Abbé Patrick du Fay de Choisinet
Abbé Albert Jacquemin
P. J-M. Gervais
P. Klaus Gorges
P. Engelbert Recktenvald
Abbé Christian Gouyaud
P. Franz Prosinger
Walthard Zimmer (deacon)
[Abbé denis Coiffet]

This is the [url="http://fssp.org/en/declfond.htm"]Declaration of Intention[/url] given 2 July 1988.

This is the [url="http://fssp.org/en/actfond.htm"]Act of Foundation[/url] given 18 July 1988.

And it was Paul Augustin Cardinal Mayer who erected the Fraternity.

[qfnol31]

What was Pope John Paul II's place in the Fraternity then?

[Cam42]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jul 27 2005, 11:08 AM']What was Pope John Paul II's place in the Fraternity then?
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He ratified the FSSP as a Society of Apostolic Life.

[quote name='Decree Erecting the FSSP']The Supreme Pontiff John Paul II, in an audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal president of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei on 18 October 1988, ratified and ordered the publication of this decree, erecting the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter as a Society of Apostolic Life and approving its constitutions ad experimentum.[/quote]

[qfnol31]

Okay, it just happened to be something I read in a newsletter of theirs.

[Mrvoll]

Is it alright to say the Tridentine Mass in english, it would make a lotof sense.

[dspen2005]

do you think that, that would have prevented the problems we have today -- ie SSPX, SSPV, etc... abuses in the liturgy?

[Oik]

If you are ever in San Antonio, go to Our Lady of the Atonement Anglican Use (a variation Rite on the Novus Ordo) Church. They are in communion with Rome.


There Mass is set up according to the Book of Common Prayer (with the proper adaptations of course). The Mass seems like the Tridentine but is in English.

The Church is awesome. They give Communion by intinction (and kneeling at the Altar rail).

That is the closest you will get to an English Tridentine Mass.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Mrvoll' date='Jul 28 2005, 08:18 PM']Is it alright to say the Tridentine Mass in english, it would make a lotof sense.
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No.

[Cam42]

[quote name='dspen2005' date='Jul 28 2005, 08:26 PM']do you think that, that would have prevented the problems we have today -- ie SSPX, SSPV, etc... abuses in the liturgy?
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No, the language was not the major issue, the abrupt change in culture was/is.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='dspen2005' date='Jul 28 2005, 08:26 PM']do you think that, that would have prevented the problems we have today -- ie SSPX, SSPV, etc... abuses in the liturgy?
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If all they had done was translate the Trid. Mass (or parts of it) into the vernacular there would have been no SSPX. As far as the SSPV, they were founded by members of the SSPX who were kicked out for being sedevecantists. They are wack jobs. Who knows what that sort would have done. But Archbishop Lefebvre would not have founded the SSPX based only on the language of the Mass. Most of us traditionalists prefer the latin, but our arguments are not based on that. The language is accidental to the liturgy. The discussion needs to be (and was when the Archbishop first addressed the problem back in the 60's) about what is essential to the liturgy. That being said, I think that Cam is right in that the battle was over the culture. Those on the far left were less concerned with what language the Mass was in, and more concerned with making the liturgy (the ritual itself) reflect modern culture, which is, needless to say, a bad idea when we are talking about the 60-'s and 70's. Those on the right were less concerned about the language and more concerned with preserving what was essential to the liturgy.

[MC Just]

Certain things that really tick me off is, ive been to parishes that dont have altars,, they have beautiful structered wooden tables but not altars. Strumming out of tune guitars and flutes.

Priests whose homilies make no sense/and or too confusing. Glass chalices, building structture so modern it doesnt even look catholic inside or out. VII was a great Idea, but something tells me the Liberals overpowered it in most of the world, esp here in the USA.

These people need to get there hippie heads out of the 60's and 70's, those darn wretched times,. Modernization, i dont agree with it, its really hard to when your in love with the churches rich traditional history, and its basically being outlawed and frowned upon.

I've seen and heard to many stupid things go on at a lot of parishes, it gets really frustrating. If only people would have intrerpreted VII correctly. Instead of imposing their selfish wants and desires on it.

[p-hawk]

My experience has been that SOME (not all, or even most) of those who frequent Tridentine liturgies are trying to turn back the clock. I wish that my diocese had a good Novus Ordo Mass in Latin, so I could compare. I've only been to a couple of Tridentine liturgies. I suspect that good implementations of the current Rite in Latina Lingua would be at least as beautiful and liturgically inspiring as the Tridentine.

[Cam42]

Excerpt from a book on my home parish, when I was living in Minnesota.

[quote name='Chapt. 9']The parish bulletin for August 20, 1967, has, this commentary by Monsignor Bandas:

As you know, the Catholic Church is passing through difficult times. Had we abided by the decisions and teachings of the II Vatican Council, we would today be in the golden age of "renewal." Instead, "crackpot" theologians and phony "experts" have taken over, and, speaking and acting in the name of a spurious "spirit of the Council," are throwing everything into chaos and confusion. And the end is not yet.

I have warned about this, predicted evil consequences. I was labeled as "old- fashioned," "behind the times," "a voice from the past," "reactionary," etc. I have not changed my mind. After two years of experimentation, I have only one more sentence to add: "By their fruits you shall know them." And what are some of these "fruits" today?

1 ) According to the reports of our American bishops, the number of converts to the Catholic Church in our country in 1966 was the lowest in fifteen years. Please note: the American bishops said this.

2) The liturgy in some of our churches is celebrated in such a noisy, irreverent, vulgar, hootenanny manner so as to be no longer worthy of the name "liturgy." Pope Paul calls it a "desanctification" of the liturgy. As a result, in some parishes many Catholics are abandoning the Sunday Mass and the reception of the sacraments.

3) Vocations to the religious and priestly life have fallen off to an all-time low. It is reliably reported that a large monastery in Minnesota has one candidate this fall for its order, whereas formerly, it would have 20 to 30. A large sisterhood reports four candidates this fall, whereas formerly it had 30 to 40. In former years Nazareth Hall used to receive over 100 boys into first year high school, whereas this year the number of registrants is 31. Certainly no one needs to know "higher math" to figure out what is going to happen in a few years if this trend continues.

4.But this is not all. Every religious order is losing a large number of professed nuns; Sisters are foolishly asking to be dispensed from their vows and are returning to the world. One order reports 30 such cases this summer, another 20, another 50. At this rate how long will it take for the whole order to disappear?

5) Does this mean that parishes will not be affected? Listen to this: Next year the neighboring diocese of St. Cloud is closing the higher grades in all parochial schools outside the city of St. Cloud for lack of Sisters and teachers. Already there is talk of beginning to close the lower grades. And elsewhere there is talk of closing some parishes for lack of priests.[/quote]

[quote name='Chapt. 10']With the close of the Second Vatican Council the work of implementing the decrees that it issued began around the world. In many places forces were at work to promote ideas as coming from the council that were indeed totally contrary to what the council ordered. Monsignor Bandas, who had attended all the sessions of the council, had been quick to note these dangers. They appeared at first in the liturgy and then in the areas of Catholic schools and catechetical instruction. The virus spread through the religious communities and into the parochial schools. Much of the promotion of these false ideas came from the central bureaucracy of the American bishops in Washington. Monsignor Bandas had stood against these dangerous innovations, and Father Schuler continued the policy of guarding against the errors of the heresy called Modernism which threatened Saint Agnes schools, indeed all parochial schools..........Monsignor Schuler continued his determination that Saint Agnes church not be violated by unnecessary and inartistic renovation which for so many churches had simply become a destruction of the architectural beauty of the building. The marble altar continued to be used, and the statues and shrines remained intact. The confessionals at the front of the church, beautifully ornate with carved wood, were remodeled into niches for the statues of the Sacred Heart and Saint Anthony in 1981. In the chapel, through the kind gift of the Sisters of the Cross, new wood-carvings of the Sacred Heart and the Blessed Virgin Mary were installed on either side of the altar. The statues were made in Münster in Germany in 1946, and when the Sisters left their convent on Blair Street for a new home on Hodgson Road they found the statues too large for their new chapel and offered them to Saint Agnes. Later, Mrs. Mary Kluck gave the parish the wood carvings of the meeting of Jesus and His Mother on the way to Calvary which hang on the rear wall of the chapel. The liturgical reforms of the Second Vatican Council in no way were intended to promote the destruction of art, and at Saint Agnes, through a careful implementation of the decrees of the council and the orders from Rome that followed on the council, the liturgy was made to conform to the laws of the Church. The building, the ceremonies, the music and the atmosphere in general were both sacred and artistic. Notice was taken of Saint Agnes in the national press with a report by the Associated Press on the Sunday ten o'clock high Mass which appeared in 1978 and was printed throughout the Middle West.[/quote]

That is for MC Just......there are some places that got it right.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='p-hawk' date='Jul 30 2005, 11:13 AM']My experience has been that SOME (not all, or even most) of those who frequent Tridentine liturgies are trying to turn back the clock. I wish that my diocese had a good Novus Ordo Mass in Latin, so I could compare. I've only been to a couple of Tridentine liturgies. I suspect that good implementations of the current Rite in Latina Lingua would be at least as beautiful and liturgically inspiring as the Tridentine.
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When one gets lost in the woods the safest way out is to retrace your steps back to the point at which you got lost; that is, that point at which you last knew where you were. That is what most trads want to do (including myself). If there is to be a real reform of the liturgy (and most real traditionalists are not against that, per se), it must start at that point.

[popestpiusx]

Also, any legitimate criticism of the N.O. will not dwell on the language or beauty issue. There is no question that the N.O. can be as beautiful or esthetically pleasing, when it is said as you described and as I am sure it is said at St. Agnes and a few other places around the country (Christendom).

[dspen2005]

fantastic... any pictures to share?

[popestpiusx]

Here is an interesting article I just read. I'll link it first here for those who do not wish to read the entire thing in this format:
[url="http://www.newoxfordreview.org/article.jsp?did=0603-altiere"]http://www.newoxfordreview.org/article.jsp?did=0603-altiere[/url]

[Cam42]

[quote name='dspen2005' date='Jul 30 2005, 05:11 PM']fantastic... any pictures to share?
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If you are talking to me, sure.....take a look.....all Novus Ordo......No Tridentine here......

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v672/camilam42/altarflr-1024.jpg[/img]
Don't believe that it is Novus Ordo? Look at the Roman Missal, it is the Novus Ordo Missal. That is actually a low Mass which is celebrated in English.

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2001.

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1938 -- Not many changes....only the paint and the addition of a marble floor and a couple of 15 foot statues. Gotta love Msgr. Schuler

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v672/camilam42/altar1024.jpg[/img]
Notice no wooden table, MC Just

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v672/camilam42/altarfloor-1024.jpg[/img]
That is Msgr. Schuler.

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Bishop Perry from Chicago.