Can non-believers perform real miracles?

[goldenchild17]

[quote][b]Emperor Vespasian heals a cripple and a blind person[/b]

Seutonius is a very respected Roman historian (moreso than Josephus). From his The Life of Vespasian, chapter 7:
Vespasian as yet lacked prestige and a certain divinity, so to speak, since he was an unexpected and still new-made emperor; but these also were given him. A man of the people who was blind, and another who was lame, came to him together as he sat on the tribunal, begging for the help for their disorders which Serapis had promised in a dream; for the god declared that Vespasian would restore the eyes, if he would spit upon them, and give strength to the leg, if he would deign to touch it with his heel. section 3Though he had hardly any faith that this could possibly succeed, and therefore shrank even from making the attempt, he was at last prevailed upon by his friends and tried both things in public before a large crowd; and with success.
[url="http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer...Vespasian*.html"]http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer...Vespasian*.html[/url]

Did Vespasian cure the cripples? We have witnesses.[/quote]

That's from a discussion of mine. I think I know where he's going with this. I said I believe in the miracles presented in Scripture because of the witnesses and whatnot. So he's countering with this. Is it possible that a non-believer can perform a miracle, whether through God or through some magical means?

[phatcatholic]

well, no man performs a miracle on his own power, but by God working through him. God can decide to work through any man, so theoretically, it is possible.

[phatcatholic]

this may possibly apply:

[b]Mark 9:38-40[/b]
[b]38 [/b]John said to him, "Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he was not following us."
[b]39 [/b]But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me.
[b]40 [/b]For he that is not against us is for us.

[goldenchild17]

So technically I could accept the possibility of that instance as a real miracle and not just a false story?

[goldenchild17]

And yeah that's the passage I was thinking of when I was asking this, but wasn't sure how it applied in this situation.

[phatcatholic]

you could accept that, if you wish. ultimately, we accept that the miracles in the bible actually took place b/c the book they are accounted in is inspired. the ECF's had 4 criteria to prove the inspiration of scripture. maybe its that criteria that you two should be discussing.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jul 27 2005, 01:42 AM']the ECF's had 4 criteria to prove the inspiration of scripture. maybe its that criteria that you two should be discussing.
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Care to enlighten me? I don't know what they are. Yeah maybe we'll get to inspiration. But I don't know if it would do any good to try to talk about whether the Bible is inspired or not, unless we agree that what we have in Scripture today is what was written originally(or pretty darn close). But I would still like that criteria for the paper I'll be writing.

[phatcatholic]

i'll have to find it. i know Jennie has it.........

[StColette]

Took me a while to find something

The specific criteria that was used in determining the exact collection of the New Testament included the issues of apostolicity, orthodoxy, antiquity, inspiration, and church usage to decide canonical status.

does that sound right Nick ?