Knowing Christ without the Sacred Scriptures

[LittleLes]

The historical sources for information on Jesus can be divided into two basic categoies, Christian and nonChristian. (The difficulty with the nonChristian sources is that over time many of them passed through Christian hands while being copied).

Christian Sources:

A large number of gospels four of which became "canonical:"
Synoptics:
Matthew
Mark
Luke
Gospel of John
Paul and Pauline Epistles
Other Epistles
Acts of the Apostles
Revelation
Various Gnostic writings (recently discovered)

NonChristian Sources:

Josephus (a Jewish historian)
Tacitus
Pliny the Younger
Suetonius
(Perhaps) Lucian of Samosata

Any additions or deletions or arguments for or against?

[Socrates]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 29 2005, 09:05 PM']RESPONSE:

Not being a true believer and although Catholic, not a partaker in the traditional  true believer inquisitions,  I  decline to play your game.

However, if you want to start a legitimate thread on the historical Jesus and what we can know of him, that's different.

And before you continue with your logical flaw of reasoning from the particular to the general without a sufficient data base (called faulty inference), I have not claimed that all scripture is fictional in nature. But it does contain quite a bit of fiction (eg. the nativity narratives in the New Testament). The hard part is to separate the fiction from the historical. But in some cases, it's easy.

However, when one does so, no matter how convincing the evidence, some apologist (which is the top of the heap in true believer circles) will attempt to use a flawed but creative argument to support the party line. And then, of course, claim that he has won.  He has to. He can never admit any error no matter what the evidence.
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[/quote]

What is so difficult about giving your honest beliefs and explaining yourself, rather than playing semantic games? You expect everyone to play your games and play by your rules, yet whenever anyone asks you a reasonable question regarding why you consider yourself Catholic, and what your intentions are, you consistently refuse to answer and start with the snarky "inquisition" and "true-believer" lines.

Hey, there's nothing to be afraid of, LittleLes! No one's going to burn you at the stake!

And so you won't give the old "shotgun" line, I'll ask one question at a time, starting with:

If the Catholic Church is based on lies and fiction (as you claim), why should one be a member? What is the purpose of being part of the Catholic Church?

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 31 2005, 02:06 PM']

If the Catholic Church is based on lies and fiction (as you claim), why should one be a member?  What is the purpose of being part of the Catholic Church?
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[/quote]

RESPONSE:

You should learn to avoid the either-or fallacy in your reasoning.

[LittleLes]

Your own self-constructed, secular humanistic, "theological" doctrine is not only dangerous, but a masterpiece of error.

Have a nice day.

[/quote]

RESPONSE:

Once again, do you have any evidence to offer in rebuttal, or only assertions without evidence???

[Socrates]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 31 2005, 02:35 PM']RESPONSE:

You should learn to avoid the either-or fallacy in your reasoning.
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[/quote]

Well, well, yet another instance of completely avoiding answering the question. Keeping up a solid track record on this, aren't we?

Since this is apparently very difficult for you, I'll try to make the question even simpler.

Why, according to you, should one be a member of the Catholic Church?

(This is not an "either or" question! And let's see if you can give a real, honest answer, rather than some wisecrack.)

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 31 2005, 02:49 PM']

Why, according to you, should one be a member of the Catholic Church?

(This is not an "either or" question!    And let's see if you can give a real, honest answer, rather than some wisecrack.)
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[/quote]
RESPONSE:

The sermons are usually short and the air conditioning works! :

And since your question is clearly off the topic "Knowing Christ without the sacred scriptures," in case you've forgotten. Perhaps you would like to start a thread on this topic.

Of course it would be quite lengthy.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 30 2005, 08:21 PM']RESPONSE:

Really? Please back up the "tradition" that Mary was assumed into heaven. Start with any evidence you have before the late fourth century.
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[/quote]

That is off-topic, you'll have to create another thread for that.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 30 2005, 08:28 PM']RESPONSE:

I take it that you don't want to debate the original topic so are bringing up  a red herring.

Something like "Are you attacking the flag?" 

But if it makes you feel any better, I'm a Vietnam era veteran.  After three years in the Army and twenty-five years in the Air Force (I looked so much better in blue!), I really don't think you can teach me anything new about "ideals."

Perhaps you would like to try  a different red herring???? :
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[/quote]


If you already knew about "ideals", you would clearly see how your position is illogical; a "Catholic" who does not even attempt to follow one single doctrine of the Church. I know several athiests who would not even understand why you would continue to associate yourself with such a religious institution. A terrorist who claims to be a U.S. Ranger, that's a new one.

I'm assuming you're either in your late 40's or early 50's. It would seem someone with your military experience and age, would be expected to have a higher level of maturity; I suppose this proves that age (and military experience) is most definately not always a sign of such.

[Paladin D]

[b]Littleles[/b], by what you have made evident in this thread, would it be accurate to say that your belief is: [b][i]Jesus was a real historical person, but not the messiah.[/b][/i]

If there is something else I'm missing, please state it.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Aug 1 2005, 12:23 AM']If you already knew about "ideals", you would clearly see how your position is illogical; a "Catholic" who does not even attempt to follow one single doctrine of the Church.  I know several athiests who would not even understand why you would continue to associate yourself with such a religious institution.  A terrorist who claims to be a U.S. Ranger, that's a new one.

I'm assuming you're either in your late 40's or early 50's.  It would seem someone with your military experience and age, would be expected to have a higher level of maturity; I suppose this proves that age (and military experience) is most definately not always a sign of such.
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[/quote]

RESPONSE:

"If you already knew about "ideals. " you would clearly see how your position is completely illogical."

That's an absolutely illogical statement.

Age and military experience need not be a sign of maturity. Only of aging. :

I rememeber the old song. "I want to be a Ranger." And people wanting to jump out of perfectly good airplanes! Is that mature????? :

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Aug 1 2005, 12:11 AM']That is off-topic, you'll have to create another thread for that.
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[/quote]

RESPONSE

If you reread the question, you will see that this was a responsive filing, an answer to an absurd statement.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Aug 1 2005, 12:28 AM'][b]Littleles[/b], by what you have made evident in this thread, would it be accurate to say that your belief is:  [b][i]Jesus was a real historical person, but not the messiah.[/b][/i]

If there is something else I'm missing, please state it.
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[/quote]

RESPONSE

No. Please reread what I have written. I said that the evidence points to Jesus being a historical person, perhaps a messiah, but he was not considered divine by his original followers. At least not until about 90 A.D. And then,because many of his followers began to consider him to be divine, the Jerusalem Christians were at that point declared heretics and expelled from the synagogues. But not as long as they only considered Jesus to be the Messiah, but not divine. That wasn't a problem for the Jewish monotheists.

The Gospel of John, written after this date, refers to this.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Aug 1 2005, 07:24 AM']RESPONSE

No. Please reread what I have written. I said that the evidence points to Jesus being a historical person, perhaps a messiah, but he was not considered divine by his original followers. At least not until about 90 A.D.  And then,because many of his followers began to consider him to be divine,  the Jerusalem Christians were at that point declared heretics and expelled from the synagogues.  But not as long as they only considered Jesus to be the Messiah, but not divine.  That wasn't a problem for the  Jewish monotheists.

The Gospel of John, written after this date, refers to this.
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[/quote]


So your belief is: [b]Jesus was a historical person, perhaps a messiah, but not divine.[/b] (?)

[Paladin D]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Aug 1 2005, 07:14 AM']RESPONSE:

"If you already knew about "ideals. " you would clearly see how your position is completely illogical."

That's an absolutely illogical statement. [/quote]

Not exactly, read my examples beforehand.


[quote]Age and military experience need not be a sign of maturity. Only of aging. :

I rememeber the old song. "I want to be a Ranger." And people wanting to jump out of perfectly good airplanes!  Is that mature????? :
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[/quote]

Experiencing an adrenaline rush is not a sign of inmaturity, if that were the case, any adult who enjoys rollercoasters is out of his mind. My parish is filled with military veterans of every branch, yet they're mature.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Aug 1 2005, 07:16 AM']RESPONSE

If you reread the question, you will see that this was a responsive filing, an answer  to an absurd statement.
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[/quote]

Isn't absurdity part of your everyday life?

[Quietfire]

By his own words,
LilLes is not only a Non-Catholic.
He is also a Non-Christian.

Folks, why even debate with someone who is clearly a non-christian.


Pax.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Aug 1 2005, 10:33 AM']Not exactly, read my examples beforehand.

Experiencing an adrenaline rush is not a sign of inmaturity, if that were the case, any adult who enjoys rollercoasters is out of his mind.  My parish is filled with military veterans of every branch, yet they're mature.
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[/quote]

RESPONSE:

What is your criteria of "maturity"? Those who unquestioningly accept everything they are told by those they assume to be in authority over them? Doesn't Paul tell us to put away childish beliefs and believe like a man?

And if you do join the Army, there are three cautions I'd offer.

(1) Don't do anything to draw fire nor stand near anybody who is going to draw fire.
(2) Avoid 2nd lieutenants with maps!
(3) Do not bail out over a village you have just bombed.
(4) Avoid equipment that has a switch saying "press to test" / "release to detonate"! :

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Aug 1 2005, 10:34 AM']Isn't absurdity part of your everyday life?
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[/quote]

RESPONSE:

It certainly is when I read some people's posts!

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Aug 1 2005, 11:04 AM']By his own words,
LilLes is not only a Non-Catholic.
He is also a Non-Christian.

Folks, why even debate with someone who is clearly a non-christian.
Pax.
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[/quote]

RESPONSE:

Because you might learn something????? :

Do only Christians possess the truth????

[Sirklawd]

hey now! i started this thread and it was locked. no fair!

but since we're here, has anyone bothered to ask the really important question?

LittleLes. why do you waste your time on the Phatmass Phorums? Does some small part of you really hope that catholicism is true. and you are just waiting to have your doubt proven wrong? or are you here simply to mock us all?