No Salvation Outside of the Catholic Church

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 03:23 AM' timestamp='1255159436' post='1982277']
So, what is the sense of becoming Catholic?[/quote]I suppose that answer might vary person to person, but I think my first post answers this sufficiently.

Edited October 10, 2009 by Mr.CatholicCat

[reyb]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' date='10 October 2009 - 03:32 AM' timestamp='1255163548' post='1982289']
I suppose that answer might vary person to person, but I think my first post answers this sufficiently.
[/quote]

Pope John Paul II consider them (these ‘not Catholics in life’ or the ‘nons’) a part of the Roman Catholic Church since he said in his letter….
---------------
‘For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical Redemptoris Missio, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ's redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. RM 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. It is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church the Savior founded.

In order to take effect, saving grace requires acceptance, cooperation, a yes to the divine gift. This acceptance is, at least implicitly, oriented to Christ and the Church. Thus it can also be said that sine ecclesia nulla salus--"without the Church there is no salvation." Belonging to the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, however implicitly and indeed mysteriously, is an essential condition for salvation.

Please see http://www.vatican.v...19950531en.html

---------------

In short, these ‘nons’ are Catholics too even if they are not member of your ‘visible Church’, and they become part in this ‘mystical body’ thru a ‘mysterious relationship’. Ironically, these type of Catholics do not even know they are Catholics and sometimes even rejected his own Mysterious Church.

Can anyone explain to us the effectiveness of this ‘mysterious relationship’ without breaking the message in John 15:20-25? (As it is written, ‘….if they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.’

How come these ‘Catholics But Not Catholics’ will be saved if they reject the teaching of the Roman Catholics Church thru her Pope, Bishops, and Priest…etc…etc? (Assuming they are the true disciples of Jesus of Christ and Roman Catholic Church is the True Church of Christ).

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 08:08 AM' timestamp='1255176516' post='1982318']
Pope John Paul II consider them (these ‘not Catholics in life’ or the ‘nons’) a part of the Roman Catholic Church since he said in his letter….
---------------
‘For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical Redemptoris Missio, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ's redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. RM 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. It is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church the Savior founded.

In order to take effect, saving grace requires acceptance, cooperation, a yes to the divine gift. This acceptance is, at least implicitly, oriented to Christ and the Church. Thus it can also be said that sine ecclesia nulla salus--"without the Church there is no salvation." Belonging to the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, however implicitly and indeed mysteriously, is an essential condition for salvation.

Please see http://www.vatican.v...19950531en.html

---------------

In short, these ‘nons’ are Catholics too even if they are not member of your ‘visible Church’, and they become part in this ‘mystical body’ thru a ‘mysterious relationship’. Ironically, these type of Catholics do not even know they are Catholics and sometimes even rejected his own Mysterious Church.

Can anyone explain to us the effectiveness of this ‘mysterious relationship’ without breaking the message in John 15:20-25? (As it is written, ‘….if they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.’

How come these ‘Catholics But Not Catholics’ will be saved if they reject the teaching of the Roman Catholics Church thru her Pope, Bishops, and Priest…etc…etc? (Assuming they are the true disciples of Jesus of Christ and Roman Catholic Church is the True Church of Christ).
[/quote]So someone can be a “[i]Catholic[/i]” and not even know it, but people who think their “[i]Catholic[/i]” may not be? So you have people who are "non-[i]Catholics[/i]" that are "[i]Catholics[/i]"?

For the sake of [b][u]this[/u][/b] discussion, let’s use a bit more objective terminology. When I personally talk about someone else’s personal beliefs not being Catholic, I mean that they do not see themselves as a Catholic. Is this fair?

I could be wrong, but I think you think that you’re somehow negating what I wrote. No.

[reyb]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' date='10 October 2009 - 08:30 AM' timestamp='1255181404' post='1982331']
So someone can be a “[i]Catholic[/i]” and not even know it, but people who think their “[i]Catholic[/i]” may not be? So you have people who are "non-[i]Catholics[/i]" that are "[i]Catholics[/i]"?

For the sake of [b][u]this[/u][/b] discussion, let’s use a bit more objective terminology. When I personally talk about someone else’s personal beliefs not being Catholic, I mean that they do not see themselves as a Catholic. Is this fair?

I could be wrong, but I think you think that you’re somehow negating what I wrote. No.
[/quote]


[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html"]Pope John Paul II said it in his letter.[/url]
Please read his entire letter and tell me if these 'nons' are Catholics or not.

Edited October 10, 2009 by reyb

[reyb]

Since dairygirl4u2c is asking closure/conclusion in this issue. Can anyone give their thought regarding Catholic Church’s declaration - ‘Outside the Church There is No Salvation’.

And If you think such declaration is true - please explain it further so that we may be informed. But for me, it is just another Catholic Church’s tradition which she herself nullifies.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 01:52 PM' timestamp='1255197146' post='1982435']
Since dairygirl4u2c is asking closure/conclusion in this issue. Can anyone give their thought regarding Catholic Church’s declaration - ‘Outside the Church There is No Salvation’.

And If you think such declaration is true - please explain it further so that we may be informed. But for me, it is just another Catholic Church’s tradition which she herself nullifies.
[/quote]

[b]It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.[/b] - Pope Pius IX

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/outside_the_church.htm

[reyb]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='10 October 2009 - 12:56 PM' timestamp='1255197404' post='1982439']
[b]It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.[/b] - Pope Pius IX

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/outside_the_church.htm
[/quote]

Yes, I heard it but (as I have said), How come these ‘Catholics But Not Catholics’ will be saved if they will reject - no matter how unintentional it maybe because of their ignorance or whatever - the teaching of the Roman Catholics Church assuming Pope, Bishops, and Priest are true disciples of Jesus of Christ in relation to John 15:20-25?

Meaning, if anyone is rejecting Christ’s disciple he is also rejecting Christ Himself. Now, if this is the case and no matter how morally upright they may be, in what way they will be saved?. There should be no gray area in here - Whether you are in Christ Otherwise you are not.

Edited October 10, 2009 by reyb

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 02:13 PM' timestamp='1255198437' post='1982449']
Yes, I heard it but (as I have said), How come these ‘Catholics But Not Catholics’ will be saved if they will reject - no matter how unintentional it maybe because of their ignorance or whatever - the teaching of the Roman Catholics Church assuming Pope, Bishops, and Priest are true disciples of Jesus of Christ in relation to John 15:20-25?

Meaning, if anyone is rejecting Christ’s disciple he is also rejecting Christ Himself. Now, if this is the case and no matter how morally upright they may be, in what way they will be saved?. There should be no gray area in here - Whether you are in Christ Otherwise you are not.
[/quote]

The Catechism explains that some individuals are born into a society where Christ is not known. If that individual lives a good life, following his or her God-given conscience, and dies before hearing the Gospel, that individual can experience eternal life. Their ignorance of Christ was through no fault of their own.

[Mark of the Cross]

My mother was a fairly regular Church goer. My younger brother and I never went to Church, I was still searching and he appeared to be agnostic. He was killed at the tender age of 16. After his death the letters kept coming of how he was such a kind and caring person, always putting the needs of others ahead of his own. At a show day outing one of his friends became ill and he stayed with him for the whole day missing the things that he had gone to see. When he was asked to mind children he hovered over them like a mother hen. He is still the most honest person I have ever met. Would not take the smallest item unjustly, always told the truth even if it got him into trouble. One day when he wanted to buy some small thing but did not have the money, my mother gave it to him. Among his possessions we found a small collection of coins. The coins given by his mother were a greater treasure than anything on earth. Each morning when I awake I think 'Good morning Father, Good morning Jesus, Good morning Holy spirit, Good morning Mother's (note plural) and Good morning BROTHER!

Edited October 10, 2009 by Mark of the Cross

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='10 October 2009 - 01:33 PM' timestamp='1255199589' post='1982464']
The Catechism explains that some individuals are born into a society where Christ is not known. If that individual lives a good life, following his or her God-given conscience, and dies before hearing the Gospel, that individual can experience eternal life. Their ignorance of Christ was through no fault of their own.
[/quote]
To add to this:
A lot of people have the legitimate opinion that someone born into, for instance, a staunch Protestant family, may never hear an accurate representation of the beliefs of the True Church. This is not their fault, and we can hope that their ignorance is invincible.

[reyb]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='10 October 2009 - 01:33 PM' timestamp='1255199589' post='1982464']
The Catechism explains that some individuals are born into a society where Christ is not known. If that individual lives a good life, following his or her God-given conscience, and dies before hearing the Gospel, that individual can experience eternal life. Their ignorance of Christ was through no fault of their own.
[/quote]

Granted. Actually it is discuss in the letter of Pope John Paul II. But still the question at hand never solve. In what way they may be saved if they will reject Christ. Or who will be their saviour if they will reject Christ.

Edited October 10, 2009 by reyb

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 04:08 PM' timestamp='1255208905' post='1982559']
Granted. But still the question at hand never solve. In what way they may be saved if they will reject Christ.
[/quote]
You cannot in full knowledge and consent reject Christ and hope to share in the salvation that He made possible.
Note: Full knowledge and consent.

[mortify]

[quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 02:13 PM' timestamp='1255198437' post='1982449']
Yes, I heard it but (as I have said), How come these ‘Catholics But Not Catholics’ will be saved if they will reject - no matter how unintentional it maybe because of their ignorance or whatever - the teaching of the Roman Catholics Church assuming Pope, Bishops, and Priest are true disciples of Jesus of Christ in relation to John 15:20-25?[/quote]

How can they reject what they are ignorant of?

[reyb]

[quote name='mortify' date='10 October 2009 - 05:34 PM' timestamp='1255214061' post='1982611']
How can they reject what they are ignorant of?
[/quote]

Of course, You have a point and since you are looking for Justice and Righteousness in saying it. Do you know, that 'ignorance' is the reason why the Lord of Glory was crucified? (see 1 Cor 2:8). Now, you are telling me that this the same 'ignorance' exonerated them. How can it be possible?

Edited October 11, 2009 by reyb

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 07:53 PM' timestamp='1255222430' post='1982677']
Of course, You have a point and since you are looking for Justice and Righteousness in saying it. Do you know, that 'ignorance' is the reason why the Lord of Glory was crucified? (see 1 Cor 2:8). Now, you are telling me that this the same 'ignorance' exonerated them. How can it be possible?
[/quote]
In courts of law, ignorance doesn't excuse you, but in terms of morals, it's much different. If you do something objectively wrong, truly not knowing that it's wrong, then how could you be held accountable?

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 10:31 AM' timestamp='1255185109' post='1982342']
[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html"]Pope John Paul II said it in his letter.[/url]
Please read his entire letter and tell me if these 'nons' are Catholics or not.
[/quote]In ethical and effective communication, one should attempt to be “other-oriented” rather than “self-oriented” in communication. I personally feel as if you are giving some kind of unsupportable innuendo to what my post meant, which the only real comment you made in reply was regarding the term “Catholic”. I thus gave what I meant by being a “Catholic” and even suggested more objective terms be used in order to avoid confusion.

You on the other hand continue to make this sort of innuendo about my comment, no real objection to its content except perhaps you don’t understand it or that it’s not as “absolute” as you would like it to be. But because you can’t quite substantiate that, you make the unfounded innuendo and somehow want to suggest that this is not in line with the Church’s doctrine concerning salvation.

If you want to directly address what I wrote and rebuttal it, feel extremely welcome, and I do encourage it. But if the best we are going to get at is innuendo and indirect subtleties, then I think its best to just state your personal opinion about the matter and move on, because it’s not very “provable” what you’re going on right now.

Your only objection thus far seems to be, one does not have to be a Catholic in life, which I identified with someone who is knowingly and intentionally a Catholic. And it seems you agree; that someone does not have to knowingly and intentionally be a Catholic in life in order to dispose themselves for salvation. Citing Pope John Paul II which he discusses this very idea.

So either you’re splitting hairs with me or you’re not saying what you really think. So when you are ready to directly address what I wrote and directly show some kind of evidence that repudiates what I wrote, no. You haven’t done anything except agree with me. Which, I don’t think that you think you agree with me.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='10 October 2009 - 01:56 PM' timestamp='1255197404' post='1982439']
[b]It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.[/b] - Pope Pius IX

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/outside_the_church.htm[/quote][quote name='HisChildForever' date='10 October 2009 - 02:33 PM' timestamp='1255199589' post='1982464']
The Catechism explains that some individuals are born into a society where Christ is not known. If that individual lives a good life, following his or her God-given conscience, and dies before hearing the Gospel, that individual can experience eternal life. Their ignorance of Christ was through no fault of their own.[/quote]Thank you for the quote and comments.

[reyb]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' date='10 October 2009 - 08:43 PM' timestamp='1255225400' post='1982723']
In ethical and effective communication, one should attempt to be “other-oriented” rather than “self-oriented” in communication. I personally feel as if you are giving some kind of unsupportable innuendo to what my post meant, which the only real comment you made in reply was regarding the term “Catholic”. I thus gave what I meant by being a “Catholic” and even suggested more objective terms be used in order to avoid confusion.

You on the other hand continue to make this sort of innuendo about my comment, no real objection to its content except perhaps you don’t understand it or that it’s not as “absolute” as you would like it to be. But because you can’t quite substantiate that, you make the unfounded innuendo and somehow want to suggest that this is not in line with the Church’s doctrine concerning salvation.

If you want to directly address what I wrote and rebuttal it, feel extremely welcome, and I do encourage it. But if the best we are going to get at is innuendo and indirect subtleties, then I think its best to just state your personal opinion about the matter and move on, because it’s not very “provable” what you’re going on right now.

Your only objection thus far seems to be, one does not have to be a Catholic in life, which I identified with someone who is knowingly and intentionally a Catholic. And it seems you agree; that someone does not have to knowingly and intentionally be a Catholic in life in order to dispose themselves for salvation. Citing Pope John Paul II which he discusses this very idea.

So either you’re splitting hairs with me or you’re not saying what you really think. So when you are ready to directly address what I wrote and directly show some kind of evidence that repudiates what I wrote, no. You haven’t done anything except agree with me. Which, I don’t think that you think you agree with me.
[/quote]

Actually, I do not contest your comment regarding 'not Catholic in life' but rather I go along with the conversation. I just make clarification using Pope John Paul's letter regarding this issue that these 'nons' are members of the Roman Catholic Church and therefore 'Catholics' too.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 09:53 PM' timestamp='1255226034' post='1982739']
Actually, I do not contest your comment regarding 'not Catholic in life' but rather I go along with the conversation. I just make clarification using Pope John Paul's letter regarding this issue that these 'nons' are members of the Roman Catholic Church and therefore 'Catholics' too.
[/quote]If you could get a non-Catholic to admit that their Catholic, but that they don’t know it, then feel all the more welcome...

But it seems like your splitting hairs, John Paul II seemed to be describing that persons can be [mystically/spirtually (somehow/someway)] attached to the Church while not being a Catholic. I don't think this makes them a Catholic in how I used the term. But when you say something IS while it IS NOT, it is a contradiction. It's an oxymoron, A Non-Catholic that is a Catholic.

But thank you for your prompt and brief reply.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Mr.CatholicCat

[reyb]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='10 October 2009 - 08:36 PM' timestamp='1255225015' post='1982719']
In courts of law, ignorance doesn't excuse you, but in terms of morals, it's much different. If you do something objectively wrong, truly not knowing that it's wrong, then how could you be held accountable?
[/quote]

So it is because of their 'ignorance' - they are now exonerated.