Catholicism roots traced to Constantine

[john6:63]

Since the devil has me in his grips and is leading me away from the Lord and my eternal security of salvation (I guess there is no salvation outside the Baptist Church), I’ve been corresponding with my former pastor (Independent Fundamental Baptist) concerning my study and conversion to Catholicism.

Here’s a portion of a reply I got from him the other day. I don’t plan on replying to him, but I’d thought you guys would like to peer inside the mind of a fundamentalist. He tells me to read [i]The History of Civilization[/i] by Will Durant. He gets the title wrong, which should’ve been my first clue; the title is [i]The STORY of Civilization[/i]. Will Durant is an admitted agnostic after dropping out of Seminary (He used to be Catholic) and he even suggested that the Holy Trinity is a pagan rip-off from Egypt.

I’ve been rebutting my pastor on every issue, so now he wants to counsel me in person. He tells me that the Baptist Church was the churches founded by the Apostles and the churches were “underground” until after the Reformation and that Baptists aren’t technically “Protestant.” I used to believe this hogwash and to think I was so gullible to have believed this is disappointing to say the least. I’m sure he has good intentions; he is a good pastor who truly loves the Lord, but his sources he uses are weak in that none are properly referenced and if they are they aren’t even recognized by any credible historians.

[quote]Dear Tommy:  Thank you again for the e-mail.  I would be happy to discuss more of these issues with you, but it would probably be better to do so on a personal basis.  I am very concerned about your seemingly adopting Roman Catholic theology—at least in part.  My concern is honest and ethical.  The doctrinal statement of Faith Baptist Church opposes the doctrines of Rome at many points.  They are irreconcilable.  I would not be true to my personal convictions nor to the convictions of my church if I failed to realize the differences.  There is a broad movement within evangelicalism to reconcile with Rome.  I can not be a part of such a movement because I accept the Bible as my only authority for faith and practice.  I would suggest, Tommy, that if you had come from an unbelieving home and had no knowledge of the Bible; and if you were shipwrecked on a deserted island with just a King James Bible, you could not read through that Bible and develop a religion that mirrors Rome.  The primitive church presented in the New Testament is vastly different from the Roman church.  I would also suggest that you read an unbiased assessment of the development of the Roman Church.  Will Durant, in his The History of Civilization, states that the Roman church arose out of the dust of political Rome.  He traces the Roman church to Constantine and claims that the Roman Church simply Christianized the old paganism of Rome.  I would recommend a thorough study of church history before you commit to the Catholic Church.[/quote]

He says that if I were raised a non-believer and was shipped wreaked with just the KJV I couldn’t develop a Catholic doctrine. Funny thing is that I would probably come up with a doctrine different from his!

That’s the danger of [i]Sola Scriptura[/i] that I’m finally coming to terms with! With 1,200 different denominations all-interpreting the same bible and all with different doctrines, no wonder people in these “do it yourself” Protestant Churches are so confused.

PS. My church keeps their sermons online. I will continue to check to see if he preaches against Catholicism in the near future and if he does I will link you guys to the sermon.

God bless
Tommy

[Didacus]

[quote name='john6:63' date='Aug 1 2005, 03:32 PM'][snip]
He says that if I were raised a non-believer and was shipped wreaked with just the KJV I couldn’t develop a Catholic doctrine. Funny thing is that I would probably come up with a doctrine different from his!

[snip]
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[/quote]

You have a most excellent point my friend! Well done...

That Constantine stuff is all part of Christolography which holds many different views and in a way lead to Atheism. It was brougt to my attention many many times before with comparaisons of Jesus' doctrine to that of Hodus, or Hercules and much more. The reason this leads to Atheism in my view is because it portrays Jesus as a simple historical character, nothing more.

Some theories (and quite a few I may add) try to show how Jesus was a fabled and did not even exist in any real terms... pretty harsh stuff to handle and debate...

My personal conclusion on the whole thing was that even though it cannot be, to christolographer's satisfaction, proven that Jesus lived and much less that He had the divinity of God in Him, it is equally impossible to prove that He did not exist at all. The statement is supported by lack of evidence on both sides (purely scientifically speaking of course). The difference between the point of views is as simple as faith.

After reading for a few months in christolography, and seeing the holes and 'jumps to conclusions' and 'debatable premises', I concluded that I had wasted my time and went back to doing some reading on theology.
Anyways... good for you for having a clearness of sight, and God bless...

[peach_cube]

Of coarse if there where no Catholic Church and you where ship wrecked, you wouldn't even have a bible.

[Laudate_Dominum]

The Catholic Faith is as plain as day in the writings of pre-Constantine Church Fathers. It's a bold and desperate claim.
And if you reject historical Christianity, what makes one protestant church the true church?

If I had no faith and no formation and I just sat down and read the Bible, I would likely just pick it apart as an interesting collection of ancient literature. I certainly can't imagine running for the nearest baptist church.

As a side note, if biblical scholarship has proven anything it's proven that the Bible is not perspicuous.

[daugher-of-Mary]

[quote]Of coarse if there where no Catholic Church and you where ship wrecked, you wouldn't even have a bible.[/quote]

[thessalonian]

Ya, those scared baptists in those catacombs, hiding out and enscribing things like "Peter and Paul Pray for us" on the walls. And Igatius, imagine that. Coming up with theories about the real prescence long before Constantine. And those Baptists that wrote the didache certainly couldn't have meant baptismal regeneratoin with their words.

Edited August 2, 2005 by thessalonian

[jezic]

[quote]There is a broad movement within evangelicalism to reconcile with Rome[/quote]



I like this idea.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Aug 1 2005, 04:21 PM']My personal conclusion on the whole thing was that even though it cannot be, to christolographer's satisfaction, proven that Jesus lived and much less that He had the divinity of God in Him, it is equally impossible to prove that He did not exist at all. [right][snapback]667576[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
I would say it is much harder to prove he didn't exist at all. It's an ridiculous claim when you really look at it. The evidence in favour of Jesus' historical existence is certainly adequate to establish it as fact.

If you reject any Christian sources (which would include the Bible) the case is still quite clear. And rejecting Christian sources is kind of silly if you ask me. I mean, if you are trying to be a fair historian and not just a controversialist.
Besides the typical non-Christian sources (Josephus and what not), I'd say the Babylonian Talmud makes the case pretty well on its own.

I think most serious scholars smirk at the radical minority (among liberal 'scholars' mind you) who hold such views. And as one who hangs out with Christ on a regular basis, I tend to smirk a bit as well.

[phatcatholic]

peep [url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/190"][b]this[/b][/url]. alot of good articles in there refuting the "trail of blood" and all that nonsense.

[john6:63]

[quote name='peach_cube' date='Aug 1 2005, 09:34 PM']Of coarse if there where no Catholic Church and you where ship wrecked, you wouldn't even have a bible.


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[/quote]
Excellent!

Speaking of the bible; I was telling my mother (a fundamentalist) that if it weren’t for Catholics we’d have no bible. My mom blurted out “NO Catholic wrote my bible!” I didn’t get into who or who didn’t write certain books, but I did want to clue her in that it were Catholic men guided by the Holy Spirit that collected the books and determined which ones would make up the bible that she reads at night.

It never even occurred to her “how” the bible was put together. I guess she just thought the KJV just dropped out of the Throne Room of Heaven.

Edited August 2, 2005 by john6:63

[john6:63]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Aug 1 2005, 11:40 PM']Ya, those scared baptists in those catacombs, hiding out and enscribing things like "Peter and Paul Pray for us" on the walls.  And Igatius, imagine that.  Coming up with theories about the real prescence long before Constantine.  And those Baptists that wrote the didache certainly couldn't have meant baptismal regeneratoin with their words.
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[/quote]
Funny thing Thessalonian is that none of my pastors have even attempted to answer any of my questions about the early Church Fathers, like Ignatius or Polycarp.

I know what it is, their afraid to go that deep into history, who could blame them, the deeper I get into history I become less of a Protestant every day.

[john6:63]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Aug 2 2005, 01:41 AM']peep [url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/190"][b]this[/b][/url]. alot of good articles in there refuting the "trail of blood" and all that nonsense.
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[/quote]
The “Trail of Blood”; a fundamentalist library isn’t complete without Carroll’s complete history of the Baptist church that you can tuck in your back pocket.

[Nathan]

[quote name='john6:63' date='Aug 2 2005, 07:02 AM']...I did want to clue her in that it were Catholic men guided by the Holy Spirit that collected the books and determined which ones would make up the bible that she reads at night.

It never even occurred to her “how” the bible was put together. I guess she just thought the KJV just dropped out of the Throne Room of Heaven.
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It'd be funny if it wasn't so true. That's the Protestant minset.

Edited August 2, 2005 by Nathan

[Nathan]

[quote name='john6:63' date='Aug 2 2005, 07:12 AM']The “Trail of Blood”; a fundamentalist library isn’t complete without Carroll’s complete history of the Baptist church that you can tuck in your back pocket.[right][snapback]668360[/snapback][/right][/quote]

[Maccabeus]

There is one body of Christ, "The First and Holy Catholic Church" not two bodies but One. Just like there is One God and One New Testament, There is One and only Catholic Church.
and besides you can't go wrong with Catholicism.