Persecution Of Protestants

[ICTHUS]

Hey all. I was looking today on a Protestant website that makes fun of and takes the piss out of Calvinism, and a question sprang to my mind:

Who, in the Church, ordered the persecution of Protestants and other heretics? Was it the local ordinaries? The Pope? Certain priests?

Citations of specific examples would be nice, too.

God bless,

Ryan

[MC Just]

are you talking about the inquisition? The Pope at the time ordered a "Investigation" on the heretics, the dominicans abused the investigation by burning and torturing the heretics. That's what I've read and learned, please correct me if i'm wrong. Also the Protestants exxagerate when it comes to the inquisition, not as many died as they claim, we have books and documentation to prove it. The Catholics were not as horrible as they claim.

[Paladin D]

are you talking about the inquisition?  The Pope at the time ordered a "Investigation" on the heretics, the dominicans abused the investigation by burning and torturing the heretics. That's what I've read and learned, please correct me if i'm wrong. Also the Protestants exxagerate when it comes to the inquisition, not as many died as they claim, we have books and documentation to prove it. The Catholics were not as horrible as they claim.

Word.

[God Conquers]

Where and when? Are you speaking of the later inquisitions, the counter reformations or the early heresies?

[SevenSorrows]

I don't know about "persecution", but I know God ordered us all to stand up against heretics and those defaming his name. We have to stand up for the holy family and their good name. I think protestants just feel like they were picked on because we called them out and exposed them as the liars and heretics that they were.

and what is up with so many protestant churches openly bashing Catholics in their sermons. The devil has such a grasp, it is sad.

[kdewolf2]

Were the Protestants even targeted by the Inquisition? I've read that there were two Inquisitions, one in France and one in Spain. The one in France was directed against the Albigensians, who were a neo-Manichean group which taught there are two gods, that the god of Jesus Christ was different from the god of the Old Testament, that marriage and procreation are evil, that the church, sacraments, and the human body are all evil. They said only the soul is good, and that it will be liberated by gnosis, which sometimes requires reincarnation. Protestants sometimes claim Albigensians as precursors, but really all they shared in common is the rejection of the Catholic Church. The Spanish Inquisition was directed against Jewish converts who relapsed or whose profession of faith was perceived as false. The claim was that these people were converting just to obtain positions in the church and in society which they could use to undermine the Catholic Church and the traditional Catholic culture. The only persecution of Protestants I'm aware of took place in England during the reign of "Bloody Mary" which was carried out under her initiative and authority. There was also the Thirty Years War and various persecutions carried out by German princes and electors, which tended to be mutual. Protestants would persecute Catholics, and Catholics would persecute Protestants. There is a lot of information about the Inquisition on the net, but I would advise caution in accepting all the claims made about it because practically everyone has some ideological ax to grind.

are you talking about the inquisition? The Pope at the time ordered a "Investigation" on the heretics, the dominicans abused the investigation by burning and torturing the heretics. That's what I've read and learned, please correct me if i'm wrong. Also the Protestants exxagerate when it comes to the inquisition, not as many died as they claim, we have books and documentation to prove it. The Catholics were not as horrible as they claim.

Did the Dominicans abuse the situation? If they did, why weren't they ever disciplined by the Church? The fact is that the Church accepted their methods. Torture and execution may strike us as "abusive," but I wouldn't lay the blame on the Dominicans. Considering the Church sponsored the Inquistion, I think we have to make a choice: the Church was wrong, or the Inquisition was right. Both perspectives involve some theological difficulties. If the Church was wrong, how can we claim that the Church is infallible, or even guided by the Holy Spirit? How could the Holy Spirit allow the Church to indulge in such a monstrous evil? Yet, if the Church was right, how can we accept Pope John Paul II's apology for the wrongs committed by the children of the Church? Weren't they acting in the Church's interest and with the Church's approval, and isn't the Church divinely guided and inspired? Besides, how can we reconcile that with the New Testament, which although it warns us about heresies in no uncertain terms, never tells us to use violence against them, and Jesus rejects violence? The Inquisition raises a lot of questions, but I wouldn't jump to any conclusions.

[Uncle Gus]

The Inquisition was at a time when the Church was unified, when every Christian was Catholic, and there was no need to make any distinction. By default, everyone was Catholic, so when a heretic sprang up, the Church would point and say "you're a heretic," and then the Civil Authorities would execute them because they were causing trouble.

The Church did not execute them. It's a technicality, sure, but it's still a valid point.

[Muschi]

kdwolf2,

I hope I have your name spelled right. I'm going to answer the latter half of your question regarding the Church/ was she right or wrong?

How could the Pope apologize for crimes of the Inquisition if the Church is infallible therefore rendering the Inquisition correct?............There were those who served as "Inquisitors" who ABUSED their positions of trust within the Church and without. (civil). Unfortunately the Church has always had her "Judases" and still does today given our current scandal but that doesn't mean that the Catholic Church is not infallible, but her members are fallible. I hope that makes sense and helps you out. - God bless! - Muschi

ps. Just for starters, check out Characters of the Inquisition- by William Thomas Walsh, Tan Publications. It's available in any local Catholic bookstore or maybe in your public library. :)

[Katholikos]

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...&hl=inquisition

[God Conquers]

Actually recent studies of the actual documents of the Inquisition, meticulously kept and stored by the DOminican Friars, reveal that they rarely if EVER tortured or killed heretics in their near 200yr existence. "The Spanish Inquisition" as an evil murderous courtis a myth propogated by protestants and Monty Python. Also it was directed against Muslims and Jews primarily, not Protestants.

[Donna]

Those responsible for the Inquisition were apostate Catholics.

Icthus, please cite a specific example.

[Uncle Gus]

Among our chief weaponry are such things as surprise, fear, a nice red uniform, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope...

[PedroX]

True, Uncle Gus, but mostly surprise. No ever expects the Spanish Inquisition!!

peace...

[Kilroy the Ninja]

True, Uncle Gus, but mostly surprise.  No ever expects the Spanish Inquisition!!

peace...

That is too funny!

[cmotherofpirl]

Those responsible for the Inquisition were apostate Catholics.

Icthus, please cite a specific example.

THe inquisition was started by the Church, not apostate Catholics.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm#II

Edited November 21, 2003 by cmotherofpirl

[Donna]

To clarify:

The Church would've had no need to begin the Inquisition if not for apostate Catholics.

[ICTHUS]

Those responsible for the Inquisition were apostate Catholics.

Icthus, please cite a specific example.

Thomas Cranmer and other Protestants were burned at the stake during the reign of Bloody Mary, a Catholic.

[jmjtina]

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...&hl=inquisition

thanks likos and cmom for the links.

B)

also:

Catholic Answers

[BLAZEr]

Thomas Cranmer and other Protestants were burned at the stake during the reign of Bloody Mary, a Catholic.

This is more what I thought you were referring to. This topic of the Church's role in the death of protestants is very difficult to explain.

First of all, the Church never killed nor ordered the killing of anyone. Only the State could do that. It was important to the state for the Church to investigate who was and wasn't a heretic because heresy did not only affect the Church is also affected the Common good, which kings and queens were responsible for. Just like today where we see politics corrupt those who practice the faith, the same was true in history. Usually a certain heresy started among a small group of political dissidents. This is true of the Albigensians, Morovians, Hussites, and the Jansenists and other heretical groups. They wanted to de-establish the authority of their ruler, they needed a reason, so they abused religion to do so.

However, on the other side, political authorities did similar things to promote their power with the church.

The case of Mary I, is quite different. She was trying to re-establish the Church following a severe persecution of Catholics. She repealed the anti-catholic laws and tried to return property that was stolen from the Catholic Church, but met firce opposition. As is true with anyone in open rebellion of the Crown, they lost their heads. This included people like Thomas Cranmer, the apostate archbishop of Canterbury.

Mary I (1553-1558 AD)

Mary I, daughter of Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon, was born in 1516 and suffered through a terrible childhood of neglect, intolerance, and ill-health. She was a staunch catholic from birth, constantly resisting pressure from others to renounce her faith, a request she steadfastly refused. She married Philip II of Spain in 1555, but was unable to produce a child.

Mary began her tumultuous reign at 37 years of age, arriving in London amid a scene of great rejoicing. Following the disarray created by Edward VI's passing of the succession to Lady Jane Grey (Jane lasted only nine days), Mary's first act was to repeal the Protestant legislation of her brother, Edward VI, hurling England into a phase of severe religious persecution. Her major goal was the re-establishment of Catholicism in England, a goal to which she was totally committed. Persecution came more from a desire for purity in faith than from vengeance, yet the fact remains that nearly 300 people (including former Archbishop of Canterbury, Thomas Cranmer and many of the most prominent members of society) were burned at the stake for heresy, earning Mary the nickname, "Bloody Mary."

Mary's marriage to the militant Catholic Philip was again designed to enforce Roman Catholicism on the realm. Unfortunately for Mary, two factors compelled opposition to her plans: the English people hated foreigners - especially the Spanish - and twenty years of Protestantism had soured the English on popery. She met with resistance at every level of society, and, unlike her father and brother, failed to conform society into one ideological pattern. Philip II, cold and indifferent to both Mary and her realm, remained in England for only a short time. He coerced Mary to enter into war with France, resulting in defeat and the loss of the last English continental possession, Calais. With the retirement of his father, Charles V of the Holy Roman Empire, Philip returned to Spain; Mary died a mere ten months later.

England suffered during the reign of Mary I: the economy was in ruin, religious dissent reached a zenith and England lost her last continental territory. Jane Austen wrote this rather scathing commentary about Mary: "This woman had the good luck of being advanced to the throne of England, in spite of the superior pretensions, Merit and Beauty of her Cousins Mary Queen of Scotland and Jane Grey. Nor can I pity the Kingdom for the misfortunes they experienced during her reign, since they fully deserved them..."

[Ellenita]

It is impossible to accurately know the level of persecution of protestants under Mary I. The state and religion were completely interlinked and the court was rife with political intrigue which was formed along religious lines, and of course there was no democracy in the land - the King or Queen was absolute ruler, so people close to the court lived precarious lives. Mary was badly advised politically in her marriage to Phillip of Spain, which weakened her rule, a lesson her sister Elizabeth I learnt in her rather more wise choice of advisers who were more politically astute. Sadly I also think Mary Queen of Scots, who has always had my every sympathy, was also surrounded by bad political advisers. The political 'spin' in Elizabeth's reign would have ensured that Mary appeared more bloody than she probably was!